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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:46 pm 
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Glad I have no plans to start then!
Quote:
The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) said workers would earn less in real wages in 2021 than they did in 2008.
Other analysis shows the biggest losers between now and 2020 will be lower income families, with the poorest third likely to see incomes drop.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38090977

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There appears to be a misapprehension I run a photography business... it's my passion as a hobby.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:43 pm 
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Is this the same IFS that failed to predict Brexit? Failed to notice the impending crash of 2007/8?
They can't predict what will happen next week let alone in 2021. Astrologers would have more success.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:50 pm 
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I wouldn't pay much attention to those (IFS) people; they are only in it for the money.
:celebrate
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:21 pm 
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Thank you for your letter in reply to my letter to the Prime Minister regarding the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union. I respond as follows.

1. You write: ‘On 23 June, the country voted to leave the European Union and it is the duty of the Government to make sure we do so.’

You are wrong on both counts. Votes cast on the day, on a 72% turn-out, represent a Leave vote of 37% of the total electorate and 26% of the population of the UK. You cannot describe this as ‘the country’ nor claim that ‘the country’ voted to leave the EU. I remind you that current Trades Union legislation requires 40% of a total electorate (not merely votes cast) to trigger a strike. The legislation on general elections requires a 66% majority of all members of the House of Commons to trigger an election outside the fixed term of a Parliament. On what conceivable grounds can you describe 37% of the total electorate and 26% of the population as ‘the country’? Use of these phrases to describe the sentiment of the UK population on EU membership is, with respect, misleading, and would appear to be deliberately so. It suits ‘Brexiters’ to speak in this way.

Secondly, the Government does not have a duty to implement the result of the referendum of 23 June. Briefing Paper 07212, sent to all MPs and Lords on 3 June 2015, in advance of debate on the 2015 Referendum Bill states unequivocally that the referendum is non-binding, advisory and consultative only, and imposes no obligation on the Government to act on its outcome.

Likewise, the Referendum Act, which the Bill became, contains no clause obligating the Government to act on the outcome of the referendum.

2. You cite the manifesto promise of the Conservative Party in the General Election of 2015 that a referendum would be held on the question of EU membership and that ‘the outcome of the referendum would be acted upon.’ The Conservative Party and the Government it formed were also committed to continued membership of the EU as a matter of publicly avowed policy on which it was elected, and this was a position made clear to the electorate in the same election campaign. Which aspect of the apparently conflicting policy do you wish to emphasise?

To assist you, might I point out that the phrase ‘outcome of the referendum’ is ambiguous. Here is one clear reading: the outcome of the referendum told us that at least a quarter of the British population is ill-informed as to the true nature of the EU, and is anxious about the effects of immigration. One thing the Government could very well do to ‘act on the outcome’ is to provide more and better information on the great value of EU membership, and to point out, with the relevant empirical facts in hand, that almost all negative comment on immigration is false.

3. You defend the choice of franchise for the referendum, which I criticized on the grounds that it excluded 16-17 year olds, ex-pats who have lived abroad for longer than a certain period, and fellow-EU citizens who make their lives and careers and pay tax here (‘no taxation without representation’ used to be a principle, once) by saying that the franchise is the same as used for General Elections. The point is that this was not a General Election. This was a referendum. The difference is very great indeed. It is public knowledge that proposals to extend the franchise to 16-17 year olds were contested by those who knew that this would have a material effect in strengthening the Remain vote. In less polite quarters this is known as gerrymandering.

4. You comment on my saying that if a referendum were to be regarded as binding or mandating, it would require a supermajority of the kind you MPs yourselves require for triggering a general election, 66% or so. You avoid this point by merely saying, ‘no amendments for such requirements were debated during the passage of the Bill.’ No: for the good reason that everyone in the House had been advised that the referendum was ‘advisory’ and ‘consultative’ only, imposing no requirement on the Government to act on it.

5. Finally, in a passage which I take it you intend as a light-hearted jest, you write, ‘I hope this response reassures you that the Government is committed to restoring the primacy and sovereignty of the UK Parliament as we leave the EU.’ If however this is intended as a serious remark, I will restrain myself to the three following comments in conclusion.

First, earlier in your letter you say, ‘The Government’s position is clear that invoking Article 50 is a prerogative power…’ We have seen that the Chief Justice and his colleagues in the Divisional Court do not agree with the Government on this, and we await the Supreme Court’s view too. Should the justices of the Supreme Court concur, you have the delicate irony of a possibility: that of making a further appeal to the European Court of Justice. It will however be a matter of surprise if any panel of justices were to think that the UK Government has a prerogative power which would have enabled it to take the UK out of the EU even without a referendum, and whenever it wished; which is the clear – and absurd – implication of the Government’s position.

The sovereignty of Parliament is connoted in this. As the UK’s sovereign body, it has the discretion, the right and the power to choose not to take the ‘advice’ of the advisory referendum, as not being in the UK’s best interests.

Second, as to the larger sense of sovereignty you wish to imply, namely the sovereignty of the UK as a state: well! we are members of NATO, the WTO, the UN, we have obligations under international law, we have duties to allies; we have constraints as a result of treaties, trade deals, and internationally-binding contracts; and we exist in a tightly globalized world economy. In light of this the concept of the ‘sovereignty’ of any state is an empty piece of rhetoric. So talk of ‘sovereignty’ in this connection it is the kind of waffling cant used by politicians in elections and referendums which signifies little.

Third and finally, the Government’s use of the referendum outcome as an excuse to take the UK out of the EU will damage the economy – it already has; it will diminish and marginalise the UK; deprive its citizens of the rights they have as EU citizens; damage UK science and education; limit the future prospects of our young people; and it will be many, many years, if ever, that the UK’s reputation will recover from the inanity of this endeavour.

Why? Because as one of the largest economies of the EU it had a leading role in one of the world’s three great blocs of influence. If the Government acts on the ill-informed will of a quarter of the population, it will have reduced a once-great and influential nation to a minor offshore player.

I look forward to your detailed comments on each of these points, which I shall greatly appreciate receiving.

Yours sincerely,

Anthony Grayling

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/article ... _1_4789695

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Last edited by Lynsab on Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:55 pm 
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First of all why is this post not in the Political section? Admin have been kind enough to provide one so why is it not being used?
Secondly am I missing something here? Who the heck is Anthony Grayling? Not quite sure why you have posted this Lynsab - are you saying that he speaks for you?

Ps I have just googledl him - is this the Philosopher A Grayling? The problem is with someone sharing a whole load of dross then someone else is going to share again someones opposing views and it just gets boring boob for tat!! ( It won't let me say t.. and has automatiocally inserted boob!!!)

PPS Is he really blaming the Government because not everybody turned out to vote??!! " The Country" did vote to leave the EU - no ifs or buts and the people who cannot accept this are the ones who are doing harm to the country.
Seems strange that the Pound has strengthened since the Autumn statement so someone must have faith in us somewhere!!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Bossy Boots wrote:
First of all why is this post not in the Political section? Admin have been kind enough to provide one so why is it not being used?
Secondly am I missing something here? Who the heck is Anthony Grayling? Not quite sure why you have posted this Lynsab - are you saying that he speaks for you?

Ps I have just googledl him - is this the Philosopher A Grayling? The problem is with someone sharing a whole load of dross then someone else is going to share again someones opposing views and it just gets boring boob for tat!! ( It won't let me say t.. and has automatiocally inserted boob!!!)

PPS Is he really blaming the Government because not everybody turned out to vote??!! " The Country" did vote to leave the EU - no ifs or buts and the people who cannot accept this are the ones who are doing harm to the country.
Seems strange that the Pound has strengthened since the Autumn statement so someone must have faith in us somewhere!!

:agree
Another boring diatribe !


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:53 am 
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KG wrote:
Is this the same IFS that failed to predict Brexit? Failed to notice the impending crash of 2007/8?

Did anyone - least of all the UK government and polling firms - predict Brexit? Or the impending crash in 2007/8?

And since when is it within the IFS's remit to 'predict' the outcome of referendums?

Bossy Boots wrote:
First of all why is this post not in the Political section? Admin have been kind enough to provide one so why is it not being used?

Probably Shelagh, for the same reason that Neil himself just posted a Brexit-related thread in the main forum - so that the topic gets read. I never go into any section on this forum other than this...and I'm sure many others don't either.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:21 am 
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I think Neils post is slightly different Yakflyer in that he is posting information from the British High Commission in Cyprus. He has not made any personal comment about the statement nor invited any discussion so not for political debate just for information.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:37 am
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Location: Wales/Famagusta
All these dreadful experts, what do they know, they're all lefty any way, much better to believe what the headlines are in the Mail, Sun, Express, Telegraph and Times, they really represent the ordinary peoples views. lol :banghead


Every household will lose a staggering £1,250 a year because of the Brexit vote, independent forecasters say – as they painted a devastating picture of falling living standards, including no increase in real wages for at least another decade.

The respected Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) also warned that working families will be hit hardest by the unprecedented slump, with pensioners better protected.

Workers will suffer because of an expected 3.7 per cent fall in real earnings by the start of the next decade, compared with the pre-referendum forecast.


Crucially, the ultra-gloomy prediction only takes into account the uncertainty triggered by the June result – not the effect of any eventual Brexit deal, which is mired in confusion.

More here...........http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 37131.html

Rating agency Fitch has just declared that Philip Hammond’s autumn statement shows that Britain’s economy will suffer from the vote to leave the EU.

In its first official reaction, Fitch says that the forecasts and spending plans outlined yesterday show that the task of bringing Britain’s debts under control has become even harder.

It also warned that Britain will suffer slower growth and weaker productivity if Brexit leads to new curbs on migrations (a point the OBR also made yesterday)..... :roll:

http://news.sky.com/story/autumn-statem ... t-10669153

I have never seen so much negativity in the news re brexit...it's overwhelming ....let's hope they can find a way thru the mire...

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-could- ... c-10670469

Those pro brexit supporters wanting to protest against the article 50 judgement to create a storm when autumn statement was read, numbers were somewhat lower.... :shock:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 34416.html

It's as popular as a fart in a space suit now that project fear has been proved to be project reality.

The possible cost of brexit, from more 'experts'... :banghead

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-23/the- ... of-brexit/

We are allowed to comment re brexit BB, I never started the thread in any section, just added my opinion...that's what the forum allows, a balanced opinion. Steve Neil etc will give information to expats received from the British high commission, we have friends living in France who used to live in Cyprus ( who wish to stay there ) and wish to know where they stand. All of us who own property in the eu would like to know WHAT will happen next.....anyone?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:03 am 
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Rock Star

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Lynsab I know you did not start this post and never said that you did! Nor am I trying to stop comments on Brexit or indeed anything else so please stop insinuating that I am!! However I still say that if the Forum moderators started a place for political posts then that is where they should be.
Actually I think all the links you post show that no one has a clue what is going to happen in the future!! I personally do not believe in surmise but reality and only time will tell.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:12 am 
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Since the original post, wasn't actually 'political' I left it where it was. With the introduction of political items have now moved it to the political section

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:12 pm 
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Bossy Boots wrote:
First of all why is this post not in the Political section? Admin have been kind enough to provide one so why is it not being used?
Secondly am I missing something here? Who the heck is Anthony Grayling? Not quite sure why you have posted this Lynsab - are you saying that he speaks for you?

Ps I have just googledl him - is this the Philosopher A Grayling? The problem is with someone sharing a whole load of dross then someone else is going to share again someones opposing views and it just gets boring boob for tat!! ( It won't let me say t.. and has automatiocally inserted boob!!!)

PPS Is he really blaming the Government because not everybody turned out to vote??!! " The Country" did vote to leave the EU - no ifs or buts and the people who cannot accept this are the ones who are doing harm to the country.
Seems strange that the Pound has strengthened since the Autumn statement so someone must have faith in us somewhere!!



:agree

Losing the will to live with remoaners.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Shame Beverley, some of us have other things in our life's to live for....other than intelligent debate that is....if sensible debate makes you wish to give up, that's quite sad...perhaps you didn't really mean it? I'm sure you know living in the uk that the country is very divided over this and the news carrries far more negativity over the issue than positivity....IF that ever changes in the coming months or years....then we'll all be happier....but it's not looking good..

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:20 pm 
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Lynsab wrote:
Shame Beverley, some of us have other things in our life's to live for....other than intelligent debate that is....if sensible debate makes you wish to give up, that's quite sad...perhaps you didn't really mean it? I'm sure you know living in the uk that the country is very divided over this and the news carrries far more negativity over the issue than positivity....IF that ever changes in the coming months or years....then we'll all be happier....but it's not looking good..



Living in the UK as we do now puts me in the forefront of popular opinion and so far since the referendum all we have heard in talking to people is that they all wish the government would just get on with it, they wish people would stop being so negative and are totally and utterly fed up with the attitude of those that refuse to accept the result.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:25 pm 
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This may draw snorts of derision from Brexiteers, but as a former PM said recently "Whatever happened with Brexit, he said, he could not accept that those people who voted to remain should have no input on the terms of Brexit."

“I hear the argument that the 48% of people who voted to stay should have no say in what happens,” he said. “I find that very difficult to accept, he argued that it must be parliament, not the government, that made the final decision on any new deal with the EU, and there was a “perfectly credible case” for a second referendum on such a deal....( notice referendum on the deal)


“The British people voted for departure but they didn’t vote for a destination, and they certainly didn’t vote to make the nation poorer and risk jobs. The haphazard way May’s cabinet are handling Brexit makes the case for a referendum on the deal stronger each day, and we’re glad to have growing cross-party support for this campaign.”

Of course all of these former PMs former leaders etc should have their say.....as should we.

I live in the UK, the 'forefront of popular opinion' I am privileged to witness is huge negativity surrounding the whole debate ATM....

The sneering at those who question anything surrounding brexit is commonplace, but it's not stopping ( in fact it's growing ) those who wish to voice concerns ...

Another example....negativity towards Farage last night on Question Time, after Tim Fallon spoke, one person booed, the rest clapped loudly after he spoke....just a few months ago it was the opposite...people have had enough....and brakes need to be applied....

We are leaving, but I suspect in a different way to what many imagined...

Either maximum access to the single market, Or alternatively, you’ll be out of the single market and the economic pain may continue for a decade.....

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:34 am 
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beverley wrote:


Living in the UK as we do now puts me in the forefront of popular opinion and so far since the referendum all we have heard in talking to people is that they all wish the government would just get on with it, they wish people would stop being so negative and are totally and utterly fed up with the attitude of those that refuse to accept the result.

Beverley,
Sad to say ... but you waste your precious time replying to some posts. They will still 'parrot on'. 'Put up or shut up' is not in their vocabulary. One or two salient points should suffice in posts ... not the contents of a books' worth.
Like you and me, I think many are "utterly fed up with the attitude" ... it's depressing. I tend to just 'skim over them.'
:bearhug


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:58 pm 
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SFD wrote:
beverley wrote:


Living in the UK as we do now puts me in the forefront of popular opinion and so far since the referendum all we have heard in talking to people is that they all wish the government would just get on with it, they wish people would stop being so negative and are totally and utterly fed up with the attitude of those that refuse to accept the result.

Beverley,
Sad to say ... but you waste your precious time replying to some posts. They will still 'parrot on'. 'Put up or shut up' is not in their vocabulary. One or two salient points should suffice in posts ... not the contents of a books' worth.
Like you and me, I think many are "utterly fed up with the attitude" ... it's depressing. I tend to just 'skim over them.'
:bearhug


I totally agree SFD.
I also just skim over them these days.
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:19 pm 
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Considering you all profess to be skimming, ignoring, having nothing to do with etc etc...you all seem to be replying a lot...

Just saying ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:58 pm 
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I was thinking exactly the same thing Lynsab.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:55 pm 
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:agree


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:58 pm 
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kato paphos wrote:
:agree

Photo of someone with no 'dress sense' ... and too much 'pie & chips'. :smilielol


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