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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Shoot to Kill? Explain please.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Expand your question please then we can reply.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:46 pm 
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lowvoltage wrote:
Expand your question please then we can reply.

What does shoot to kill mean?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Pretty obvious, make sure you kill the bugger when you shoot him/her instead of wounding so we have to treat and keep them and their families while they are in prison.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:01 pm 
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Strange question from an ex-military man :doh

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Back in the bad old days of the Troubles, the RUC and the regulars were told that should their lives be threatened they should neutralise the threat in the speediest way possible, multiple rounds, centre mass.

A number of Labour politicians [including Mssrs. Corbyn et al] said this was not appropriate and said that armed officers and soldiers should shoot to incapacitate, or even not return fire at all, for risk of taking a life, regardless of the risk to their own.

I assume this was suggested on the basis that the last weapon these guys had ever used was a Johnny Seven. It has been a point of contention about how armed officers should react to armed threats ever since

Personally, I think these brave men who protect us from assorted armed zealots and psychopaths, should take whatever steps are necessary to protect their own lives [and mine] whatever the cost to someone who chooses to arm themselves with a gun.

In fact my policy would be 'shoot to kill, empty the mag, bring a spare in case they are still twitching'


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:45 pm 
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M.A.D wrote:
Strange question from an ex-military man :doh


'Strange question', not at all, 'Shoot to Kill' was never a term used whilst I was serving or training. In fact a body wound from a .303" back in 1962 or a 7.62mm later on would more than likely prove fatal, a full on arm injury from either calibre would more than likely result in the los of the limb.
So like I said what is Corbyn moaning on about regarding Shoot to Kill.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Bassman63, surprised that you never heard this term whilst serving, if you served in Northern Ireland then you should have, it formed part of your NI training.
I served from 1973 - 1995 when we did target shooting either for marksman or annual classification we were taught on wooden targets figure 11 or 12, point of aim was central body shot the idea was to kill your enemy or he would kill you simple.
Only special ops people go for head shots, this is to stop the brain from carrying out a final command, for example detonating a suicide vest, only in movies do you shoot to wound.
Over the years that term has been moulded into general speech, and those who have no idea about combat or terrorism want it stopped, would I shoot to kill dam right I would,


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Bassman when I was in the ARMY I was taught that if you point a weapon at someone be prpared to kill them as that is what it is for.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Maybe John was trained only to whack them around the head a few times with his bass guitar...... perhaps they didn't give him anything which fired ammo?

Am waiting now to see how many celebrities he's thwacked on the odd occasion or perhaps pulled a few strings with :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:47 am 
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lowvoltage wrote:
Bassman63, surprised that you never heard this term whilst serving, if you served in Northern Ireland then you should have, it formed part of your NI training.
I served from 1973 - 1995 when we did target shooting either for marksman or annual classification we were taught on wooden targets figure 11 or 12, point of aim was central body shot the idea was to kill your enemy or he would kill you simple.
Only special ops people go for head shots, this is to stop the brain from carrying out a final command, for example detonating a suicide vest, only in movies do you shoot to wound.
Over the years that term has been moulded into general speech, and those who have no idea about combat or terrorism want it stopped, would I shoot to kill dam right I would,

My time went from 1962 - 1969 before Northern Ireland the term shoot to kill was never ever used during my time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:49 am 
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shania wrote:
Bassman when I was in the ARMY I was taught that if you point a weapon at someone be prpared to kill them as that is what it is for.


Exactly, and that is what I was trained to do. This was me just 19 yrs old in 1962 representing my battalion at the Bisley Championships with my trusty Mark iv .303" Lee Enfield, I still target shoot and got 496 out of 500 in a recent competition.


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Last edited by Bassman63 on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:04 am 
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Fylde Filly wrote:
Maybe John was trained only to whack them around the head a few times with his bass guitar...... perhaps they didn't give him anything which fired ammo?

Am waiting now to see how many celebrities he's thwacked on the odd occasion or perhaps pulled a few strings with :roll:


Don't know if I told you but one Sunday afternoon 3 young lads who'd travelled out on the bus knocked on our door, Val opened it and they asked "Is John Swift in we want him to build him some loudspeaker cabinets" 'Rick Savage', 'Joe Elliot' and Pete Willis of Def Leppard.
Yeh I made them and delivered them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:08 am 
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lowvoltage wrote:
I served from 1973 - 1995 when we did target shooting either for marksman or annual classification ,


I came just 3 points off of marksman the first time I ever fired, two weeks later on just my second time of firing I did so well I was put in the Bisley Team.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:11 am 
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Fylde Filly wrote:
Am waiting now to see how many celebrities he's thwacked on the odd occasion or perhaps pulled a few strings with :roll:

The 2IC of our company was a TA officer called Capt. Peter Thornton from Thorntons Toffee. Ooh name dropping I don't know. :there


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:22 am 
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Bassman63 wrote:
Don't know if I told you but one Sunday afternoon 3 young lads who'd travelled out on the bus knocked on our door, Val opened it and they asked "Is John Swift in we want him to build him some loudspeaker cabinets" 'Rick Savage', 'Joe Elliot' and Pete Willis of Def Leppard.
Yeh I made them and delivered them.


Yes - you already told us that one :doh

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:46 am 
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Why else would you shoot?
Just hope you don't miss!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:25 am 
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beverley wrote:
Pretty obvious, make sure you kill the bugger when you shoot him/her instead of wounding so we have to treat and keep them and their families while they are in prison.


Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:45 am 
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TalaDavid wrote:
Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


I wonder what you would have done if you were face to face with someone you believed was wearing a suicide vest and the only thing between you and the destruction of innocent lives was your gun and the training you had been given to use it. Its very easy to pontificate, after the event, from the comfort of an armchair. Hindsight is wonderful isn't it?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:35 am 
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The expression has been around for a very long time. Here is a 1947 film.
Attachment:
shoot-to-kill.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:15 am 
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David G, Well said could not have put it better myself :clap :uk


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:42 am 
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One of my old instructors always said "You don't shoot to kill...you shoot to stay alive"

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:46 pm 
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David G wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


I wonder what you would have done if you were face to face with someone you believed was wearing a suicide vest and the only thing between you and the destruction of innocent lives was your gun and the training you had been given to use it. Its very easy to pontificate, after the event, from the comfort of an armchair. Hindsight is wonderful isn't it?


Excellent post. In an active dangerous situation you have to think fast


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Fylde Filly wrote:
Bassman63 wrote:
Don't know if I told you but one Sunday afternoon 3 young lads who'd travelled out on the bus knocked on our door, Val opened it and they asked "Is John Swift in we want him to build him some loudspeaker cabinets" 'Rick Savage', 'Joe Elliot' and Pete Willis of Def Leppard.
Yeh I made them and delivered them.


Yes - you already told us that one :doh


Sorry, did I tell you the one about building a full sound system for a band Rick Allan was in prior to Def Leppard?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:54 pm 
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M.A.D wrote:
One of my old instructors always said "You don't shoot to kill...you shoot to stay alive"


One of the binhead recruits said to the Sergeant "When do we get to shoot us guns Sergeant" the reply was hilarious "You don't shoot you guns you fire them, you shoot people" followed by the sergeant bopping the recruit on the head with his pace stick.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Bassman63 wrote:
Fylde Filly wrote:
Maybe John was trained only to whack them around the head a few times with his bass guitar...... perhaps they didn't give him anything which fired ammo?

Am waiting now to see how many celebrities he's thwacked on the odd occasion or perhaps pulled a few strings with :roll:


Don't know if I told you but one Sunday afternoon 3 young lads who'd travelled out on the bus knocked on our door, Val opened it and they asked "Is John Swift in we want him to build him some loudspeaker cabinets" 'Rick Savage', 'Joe Elliot' and Pete Willis of Def Leppard.
Yeh I made them and delivered them.


Did any of the fame and talent ever rub off on you John?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOhZgAPn_CU
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:08 pm 
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I always thought big bore and small bore referred to the type of gun and not the type of person that fired them :lol: Looks like I'll have to have a re-think


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Maybe a few of you lot should get out more.

Take a walk people.

Put the computer down for five minutes and go and face the real world.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:08 pm 
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TalaDavid wrote:
beverley wrote:
Pretty obvious, make sure you kill the bugger when you shoot him/her instead of wounding so we have to treat and keep them and their families while they are in prison.


Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


I agree that this one isolated incident was very regrettable but he did run when the police asked him to stop and they did believe he was one of the terrorists and was wearing a vest. He was an illegal overstayer in the country so was breaking the law which is why he ran and would not surrender so what were the police supposed to do in that situation? I am sure it still haunts them and they didn't get compensation for their suffering and trauma after the event.
Very racist comment which was unnecessary, I am sure the police did not know he was a foreigner.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:29 pm 
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beverley wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
beverley wrote:
Pretty obvious, make sure you kill the bugger when you shoot him/her instead of wounding so we have to treat and keep them and their families while they are in prison.


Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


I agree that this one isolated incident was very regrettable but he did run when the police asked him to stop and they did believe he was one of the terrorists and was wearing a vest. He was an illegal overstayer in the country so was breaking the law which is why he ran and would not surrender so what were the police supposed to do in that situation? I am sure it still haunts them and they didn't get compensation for their suffering and trauma after the event.
Very racist comment which was unnecessary, I am sure the police did not know he was a foreigner.

:goodpost :agree They conveniently forget that he was an illegal and not obeying the police request to "Stop" and was heading for a train .... full of passengers !


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:21 am 
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beverley wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
beverley wrote:
Pretty obvious, make sure you kill the bugger when you shoot him/her instead of wounding so we have to treat and keep them and their families while they are in prison.


Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


I agree that this one isolated incident was very regrettable but he did run when the police asked him to stop and they did believe he was one of the terrorists and was wearing a vest. He was an illegal overstayer in the country so was breaking the law which is why he ran and would not surrender so what were the police supposed to do in that situation? I am sure it still haunts them and they didn't get compensation for their suffering and trauma after the event.
Very racist comment which was unnecessary, I am sure the police did not know he was a foreigner.


Spot on Beverley very sensible and balanced post.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:27 am 
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Shoot to kill.
To unleash a deadly force with intent of making life extinct!
That is shoot to kill.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Paul & Lesley wrote:
Shoot to kill.
To unleash a deadly force with intent of making life extinct!
That is shoot to kill.


Very true and that is what a firing squad does, but when you're in a terrorist, riot or combat situation your intended target is not standing upright in front of a wall or tied to a pole it is an entirely different situation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:56 pm 
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beverley wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
beverley wrote:

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


He was an illegal overstayer in the country so was breaking the law

I am sure the police did not know he was a foreigner.



Make up your mind. If they knew he was an "illegal overstayer" then presumably they knew he was a foreigner. :doh

My point about his being a foreigner was, I thought, perfectly clear, but obviously went over your head. Far from being racist, I was simply implying that if he had been British and white, then there would have been far more fuss made over it, with which I would have disagreed. He was an innocent human being, running for a train, like many others that day. I don't think his being an illegal overstayer justifies his being linked to terrorism. He looked absolutely nothing like the terrorist who they thought had got away.

Yes, it was a tad regrettable, wasn't it?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:03 pm 
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TalaDavid wrote:
He was an innocent human being, running for a train, like many others that day.

After vaulting the barrier without paying, refusing to 'stop' at the request of the police, heading for a train-full of passengers ...... Would you wait and 'toss a coin' to decide further action ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:05 pm 
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TalaDavid wrote:
beverley wrote:
Pretty obvious, make sure you kill the bugger when you shoot him/her instead of wounding so we have to treat and keep them and their families while they are in prison.


Quite. Except in cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where they put five bullets in his head from point blank range, then had to cough up huge damages to his family afterwards.

Then again, he was Johnny Foreigner and doesn't matter, does he?


Won't go down as one of your better comments TalaDavid, implying that man was shot on racist grounds after ignoring police orders during an ongoing terrorist situation is not the proper thing to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:09 pm 
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SFD wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
He was an innocent human being, running for a train, like many others that day.

After vaulting the barrier without paying, refusing to 'stop' at the request of the police, heading for a train-full of passengers ...... Would you wait and 'toss a coin' to decide further action ?


Spot on, no doubt the the knicker wetter, tree hugger do gooders will be moaning about the over zealous police action in the latest Muslim atrocity Near London Bridge.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:47 pm 
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SFD wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
He was an innocent human being, running for a train, like many others that day.

After vaulting the barrier without paying, refusing to 'stop' at the request of the police, heading for a train-full of passengers ...... Would you wait and 'toss a coin' to decide further action ?


From the official report:

"Menezes entered the Tube station at about 10:00am, stopping to pick up a free newspaper. He used his Oyster card to pay the fare, walked through the barriers, and descended the escalator."

So, what do you now say? Or do you know better?

Bassman: do you do joined-up thinking, or do you not read what people have written (see my last post, above, for what I thought was a clear explanation of my earlier comment, but obviously had too many long words in it). Perhaps you should stick to posting ludicrous photos of (allegedly) yourself on various boards, duplicating forum threads (as this one, posted at almost the same time as the one on PaphosLife).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:50 pm 
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TalaDavid wrote:
SFD wrote:
TalaDavid wrote:
He was an innocent human being, running for a train, like many others that day.


I thought his name was Jean Charles de Menezes, was Johnny Foreigner his other name? If he'd set off earlier he wouldn't have needed to run.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:58 pm 
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[quote="TalaDavid]
From the official report:
"Menezes entered the Tube station at about 10:00am, stopping to pick up a free newspaper. He used his Oyster card to pay the fare, walked through the barriers, and descended the escalator."
So, what do you now say? Or do you know better?[/quote]


I stand to be corrected .... if you can give a link to that official report ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:21 pm 
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I doubt if this is the "official" report and I too would be interested to see it, but the Wikipedia article gives a pretty full description of all parts of the events.

It takes some reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... de_Menezes

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Fylde Filly wrote:
I doubt if this is the "official" report and I too would be interested to see it, but the Wikipedia article gives a pretty full description of all parts of the events.

It takes some reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... de_Menezes

Thanks, FF.
Extensive Wiki 'description' (not defined evidence).
So many versions from eye(?) witnesses / relatives / police, contained in the report !
It seems that it just depends on which version one believes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:26 pm 
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I see the ECHR ruled no one acted unlawfully in the shooting. It would therefore appear that given the circumstances (ie nutters going around blowing themselves and other people up on trains and buses) the police reacted reasonably.


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