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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:01 am 
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Brexit expat retirees 'may cost NHS millions'

Tens of thousands of expat pensioners may return to the UK to use the NHS after Brexit - unless a deal can be done to let them keep receiving care abroad, a think tank has warned.
The Nuffield Trust estimates the cost of treating them - on home soil, rather than abroad - could double to £1bn.
Currently, the UK gives around £500m a year to EU countries that care for Brits who have retired abroad.
Last year, spending on the NHS in England was around £120 billion.
The warning from the Nuffield Trust came as Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told a newspaper that the NHS could suffer if Brexit "goes wrong".

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http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40095822

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:48 am 
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Therein begs the question. Why does it cost double to treat them in the UK? Maybe all UK resident should therefor be transferred overseas for treatment in the EU reducing the 120 billion bill, shrinking the NHS admin and management and leaving only an emergency and front line service in the UK.

I think theres too many fingers in the honey pot to ever get a good deal for patients.

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:29 am 
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Maybe the difference can be explained by the fact that many retirees are living in EU Member States without taking out residency. Thus maintaining (illegally) many UK benefits they are not entitled to.
In the case of Cyprus we know of as many expat Brits who do not have a Yellow slip as those who do.
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:30 am 
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geoffreys wrote:
..... In the case of Cyprus we know of as many expat Brits who do not have a Yellow slip as those who do.
Geoff.



Plus so many who are working here but are not properly registered so, IMO roll on Brexit so that they all get what they deserve !


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:58 am 
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tanny wrote:
Therein begs the question. Why does it cost double to treat them in the UK? Maybe all UK resident should therefor be transferred overseas for treatment in the EU reducing the 120 billion bill, shrinking the NHS admin and management and leaving only an emergency and front line service in the UK.

I think theres too many fingers in the honey pot to ever get a good deal for patients.


Excellent point! :lol:

Of course, the other point is that it would be an increase of less than 1% in the NHS budget and they'd save the £500Mn that they wouldn't have to send abroad each year if we all came back...

Plus think how much extra tax and duty on flights they'd collect if we all popped back to the UK for our treatments... why, they may even make money from it... ;)


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:03 am 
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In 2014 I had to take early retirement and moved to Cyprus, just after we arrived the government stopped the S1 system for expats, rightly or wrongly the government were shrewd in the S1 cancelation they saved millions.
When Brexit does happen I bet they have already looked at the new potential issue, they will most certainly have a strategy in place to deal with this if they do not get a deal with Europe.
In my opinion I believe that they will say if you are not domiciliary in the UK and on the council list, you will not be entitled to NHS, you can jump up and down and protest as much as you like it will make no difference because that is how governments think and work.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:27 am 
The reason it costs more in the UK rather then Cyprus /Spain etc is the cost of medical care is more.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:36 am 
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lowvoltage wrote:
In 2014 I had to take early retirement and moved to Cyprus, just after we arrived the government stopped the S1 system for expats, rightly or wrongly the government were shrewd in the S1 cancelation they saved millions.
When Brexit does happen I bet they have already looked at the new potential issue, they will most certainly have a strategy in place to deal with this if they do not get a deal with Europe.
In my opinion I believe that they will say if you are not domiciliary in the UK and on the council list, you will not be entitled to NHS, you can jump up and down and protest as much as you like it will make no difference because that is how governments think and work.


We came here in 2003 and once I reached retirement age I was entitled to health care here using my pensioners E121 (now S1) form; it also covered my wife. BUT we lost all entltlements to the UK NHS.
Before that we had to have private health insurance here, as we did not have E121 as I had not worked in UK during the previous 2 years of moving here.
The Conservative Govt fairly recently re-instated NHS care for pensioners living in (say) Cyprus but on a visit or returning to live, including pre-existing conditions. Our EHIC cards gave SOME cover in UK but NOT all - so that reinstatement was most welcome.
Meantime, as you say, those taking early retirement are denied cover in UK if they visit etc.
Which is why, I suggest, so many Brits living here have not registered and told the UK Authorities of their relocation; thus keeping UK NHS cover and illegally using EHIC cards to get free cover in Cyprus (or any other EU Member State).
When Brexit takes place these cheats will be caught out. And they will have to buy health insurance like we had to do, and register (yellow slip - might then go back to the old pre-EU pink slip).
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:43 am 
I know of a couple who have lived here for twenty years, they have used their UK EHIC card for visits to theLarnaca Hospital, but were caught out last year, when the husband tried to get treatment....So they do check.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:26 pm 
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COYS wrote:
I know of a couple who have lived here for twenty years, they have used their UK EHIC card for visits to theLarnaca Hospital, but were caught out last year, when the husband tried to get treatment....So they do check.


That is good news, but they do not check many.
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:36 pm 
That will change big time, when the UK exits Europe.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:39 pm 
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COYS wrote:
That will change big time, when the UK exits Europe.


Exactly what I said in an earlier post.
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:18 pm 
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I know of many people who have kept a uk address just to get health cover when they go back and forwards .
I choose to pay social ins , as did my wife , more than 15 years back , my heart attack treatment
which would have cost 10`s of thousands at the time , was free ..
I am very happy we have paid in and can walk with our heads up regarding paying our way,
we might even get a cypriot pension one day ..

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Neil wrote:
I know of many people who have kept a uk address just to get health cover when they go back and forwards .
I choose to pay social ins , as did my wife , more than 15 years back , my heart attack treatment
which would have cost 10`s of thousands at the time , was free ..
I am very happy we have paid in and can walk with our heads up regarding paying our way,
we might even get a cypriot pension one day ..


Well Neil like us you have done things the proper and correct way.
Keeping a UK address as you put it isn't just a matter of health care, many of those cheats are
avoiding income tax, often paying none in either UK or Cyprus.
I know one couple who also have a brand new car paid for by UK because he is disabled.
They shipped it out to Cyprus. I wouldn't have thought that was allowed (?).
Other benefits they still get (which we don't!) is the WFA and Pensioner Credit.
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:19 am 
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geoffreys wrote:
Neil wrote:
I know of many people who have kept a uk address just to get health cover when they go back and forwards .
I choose to pay social ins , as did my wife , more than 15 years back , my heart attack treatment
which would have cost 10`s of thousands at the time , was free ..
I am very happy we have paid in and can walk with our heads up regarding paying our way,
we might even get a cypriot pension one day ..


Well Neil like us you have done things the proper and correct way.
Keeping a UK address as you put it isn't just a matter of health care, many of those cheats are
avoiding income tax, often paying none in either UK or Cyprus.
I know one couple who also have a brand new car paid for by UK because he is disabled.
They shipped it out to Cyprus. I wouldn't have thought that was allowed (?).
Other benefits they still get (which we don't!) is the WFA and Pensioner Credit.
Geoff.


Difficult to understand how they can avoid income tax in both countries?
I have a yellow slip and pay my income tax in Cyprus - according to my accountant I can choose either but must
pay in one country, Cyprus is much cheaper for me.
I am still confused over healthcare entitlement here - I am not yet in receipt of a UK state pension so assume I am
not entitled to free healthcare here (which seems slightly bizarre, having paid NI for 42 years in the UK), but does that
mean I am still entitled to it in the UK?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:33 am 
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Jonno are you working in Cyprus and paying Social Insurance contributions? If yes, and earnings are under €18,000 then you're entitled to Cypriot health care and a buff coloured medical card.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:22 pm 
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jonno wrote:
geoffreys wrote:
Neil wrote:
I know of many people who have kept a uk address just to get health cover when they go back and forwards .
I choose to pay social ins , as did my wife , more than 15 years back , my heart attack treatment
which would have cost 10`s of thousands at the time , was free ..
I am very happy we have paid in and can walk with our heads up regarding paying our way,
we might even get a cypriot pension one day ..


Well Neil like us you have done things the proper and correct way.
Keeping a UK address as you put it isn't just a matter of health care, many of those cheats are
avoiding income tax, often paying none in either UK or Cyprus.
I know one couple who also have a brand new car paid for by UK because he is disabled.
They shipped it out to Cyprus. I wouldn't have thought that was allowed (?).
Other benefits they still get (which we don't!) is the WFA and Pensioner Credit.
Geoff.


Difficult to understand how they can avoid income tax in both countries?
I have a yellow slip and pay my income tax in Cyprus - according to my accountant I can choose either but must
pay in one country, Cyprus is much cheaper for me.
I am still confused over healthcare entitlement here - I am not yet in receipt of a UK state pension so assume I am
not entitled to free healthcare here (which seems slightly bizarre, having paid NI for 42 years in the UK), but does that
mean I am still entitled to it in the UK?


If you are working here with yellow slip and are paying Cyprus Social Security (their NIC) then you can get health care here.
You will not be entitled to UK NHS care until you receive your UK State Pension.
Regards income tax it can be done, but ain't legal, and those doing that do NOT have a yellow slip.
As it is not legal I do not propose to explain how it is done!
I do have a yellow slip and opted to be taxed only in Cyprus on my worldwide income under the terms of the Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Cyprus. I still have tax to pay, but not much, and a lot less than I would in UK.
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:36 pm 
As far as I know Cypriot citizens with four children or more get free healthcare irrespective of income.....If your paying social then it depends on your total income as a family, if your entitled to free health care or not...the citizens office will clear it up for you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:39 pm 
If you are working here with yellow slip and are paying Cyprus Social Security (their NIC) then you can get health care here.
You will not be entitled to UK NHS care until you receive your UK State Pension.
Regards income tax it can be done, but ain't legal, and those doing that do NOT have a yellow slip.
As it is not legal I do not propose to explain how it is done!
I do have a yellow slip and opted to be taxed only in Cyprus on my worldwide income under the terms of the Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Cyprus. I still have tax to pay, but not much, and a lot less than I would in UK.
Geoff.[/quote]
Free healthcare depends on your total family income


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 pm 
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COYS wrote:
If you are working here with yellow slip and are paying Cyprus Social Security (their NIC) then you can get health care here.
You will not be entitled to UK NHS care until you receive your UK State Pension.
Regards income tax it can be done, but ain't legal, and those doing that do NOT have a yellow slip.
As it is not legal I do not propose to explain how it is done!
I do have a yellow slip and opted to be taxed only in Cyprus on my worldwide income under the terms of the Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Cyprus. I still have tax to pay, but not much, and a lot less than I would in UK.
Geoff.

Free healthcare depends on your total family income[/quote]

True, so if you earn a high income you will have to pay some. The percentages were well documented on the forums, or on-line I guess will detail the bands.
Point is though, you have to be working and paying in to the Social fund whatever income band you are, in order to get healthcare.
UK retirees here have their costs paid by the UK (who pay it to Cyprus).
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:34 pm 
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And you have to have paid into the SI system for 3 yrs.

The figure of €18k is for a single persons' income. As a couple, off the top of my head I think it was something like €30k joint income. That's up to when I left Cyprus last year.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:51 pm 
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geoffreys wrote:
jonno wrote:
geoffreys wrote:
[quote="Neil"

Difficult to understand how they can avoid income tax in both countries?
I have a yellow slip and pay my income tax in Cyprus - according to my accountant I can choose either but must
pay in one country, Cyprus is much cheaper for me.
I am still confused over healthcare entitlement here - I am not yet in receipt of a UK state pension so assume I am
not entitled to free healthcare here (which seems slightly bizarre, having paid NI for 42 years in the UK), but does that
mean I am still entitled to it in the UK?


If you are working here with yellow slip and are paying Cyprus Social Security (their NIC) then you can get health care here.
You will not be entitled to UK NHS care until you receive your UK State Pension.
Regards income tax it can be done, but ain't legal, and those doing that do NOT have a yellow slip.
As it is not legal I do not propose to explain how it is done!
I do have a yellow slip and opted to be taxed only in Cyprus on my worldwide income under the terms of the Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Cyprus. I still have tax to pay, but not much, and a lot less than I would in UK.
Geoff.


Not working here and have no intention of working here. I receive an occupational pension, and like you have a yellow slip and pay my tax in Cyprus, which
is a lot less than it would be in the UK. However, I am too young to receive a UK state pension so will not get free healthcare here until I do I assume.
That seems a little unfair - were I in the UK I would receive free healthcare, just because I am in Cyprus I do not. As I say, I did pay in full NI contributions for 42 years
plus a huge amount of income tax over that period!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:01 pm 
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All down to choices, Jonno.....

Weather or Whether ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Not unfair at all Jonno your choice and you should ensure you have all the facts to hand before you make the decision to move away from the UK.
Maybe the lower amount of tax you pay will cover you for private health insurance.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:58 pm 
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Poppytim wrote:
Not unfair at all Jonno your choice and you should ensure you have all the facts to hand before you make the decision to move away from the UK.
Maybe the lower amount of tax you pay will cover you for private health insurance.


That may be your opinion which of course you are entitled to, but to me it seems bizarre to make the arbiter of whether or not
you are entitled to NHS funded healthcare in Cyprus based on you being in receipt of the state pension. One has nothing to do with the
other. And if I were here on holiday, even for an indeterminate period, I would be entitled to it. Surely what you are entitled to should
be based on the contributions you have made; I have no doubt that there are UK state pensioners here who benefit from free healthcare
who have paid in far less to the system than I have. That is the point I am making - it just seems such an arbritary qualification! Obviously
I was aware that I would require insurance before moving here and financially it is not an issue for me fortunately, although it may be for
others who have retired here in advance of receiving their state pension. Please explain why in your opinion it is "fair"? I think my suggestion
is a lot fairer.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:56 am 
Fair or not Fair, it is what it is, UK National Health is not based on what you have payed in over the years, but where you live.....dont see the point of crying, isnt going to change a thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:15 am 
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Maybe this makes sense Jonno? Don't forget that people under pension age in the UK still have to pay for prescriptions( except for Scotland) They receive NHS care because they either pay NI contributions or have them credited if they are in receipt of benefits. If you decide to go and live out of the country before pension age then you have voluntarily elected out of paying contributions. Don't forget that no matter how many years you have paid conts in the UK or however much you have paid you still have to continue paying until you reach retirement age.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:51 am 
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:evil: :evil: If all the money that myself and my wife paid into national insurance, plus the employers contributions coffers had been paid into a pension fund during our working lives we would be able to afford the best private medical attention anywhere in the world.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:27 pm 
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And what about all the military that paid their contributions like my husband who served for over 22 years and for most of that time never cost the NHS a penny as we had the military hospitals for most of that time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:09 am 
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COYS wrote:
Fair or not Fair, it is what it is, UK National Health is not based on what you have payed in over the years, but where you live.....dont see the point of crying, isnt going to change a thing.


I'm not "crying" about anything - I thought this was a forum for various forms of discussion. To me, the "rules" as they stand don't make sense and I'm still waiting
for somebody to justify the reasoning behind them. It's obviously something the UK government has done in an attempt to save money, the same way they have
denied pensioners in other countries the RPI pension increase. Still no logical justification for it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:11 am 
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Poppytim wrote:
Maybe this makes sense Jonno? Don't forget that people under pension age in the UK still have to pay for prescriptions( except for Scotland) They receive NHS care because they either pay NI contributions or have them credited if they are in receipt of benefits. If you decide to go and live out of the country before pension age then you have voluntarily elected out of paying contributions. Don't forget that no matter how many years you have paid conts in the UK or however much you have paid you still have to continue paying until you reach retirement age.


I'm still paying voluntary NI contributions until I reach state pension retirement age.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:41 am 
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Oh well I apologise Jonno - that rather puts my theory to bed!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:44 am 
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If you retire early you do not have to continue paying NI .

"You continue to pay National Insurance even after reaching 35 years of contributions provided you're still working. These payments stop when you hit state pension age - even if you keep on working past retirement.

Provided the income comes from a registered pension scheme or an income product bought with savings from a registered pension scheme, you won't have to pay National Insurance."

I did wonder if I needed to make voluntary contributions but was told I did not have to .

I stopped working at age 52 , we have lived in Cyprus 7 years . My wife got her pension at age 60 so I have been covered for health care as her dependant . I had my pension forcast last year and I will get full state pension next year despite not having paid NI all these years .


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Number6 wrote:
If you retire early you do not have to continue paying NI .

"You continue to pay National Insurance even after reaching 35 years of contributions provided you're still working. These payments stop when you hit state pension age - even if you keep on working past retirement.

Provided the income comes from a registered pension scheme or an income product bought with savings from a registered pension scheme, you won't have to pay National Insurance."

I did wonder if I needed to make voluntary contributions but was told I did not have to .

I stopped working at age 52 , we have lived in Cyprus 7 years . My wife got her pension at age 60 so I have been covered for health care as her dependant . I had my pension forcast last year and I will get full state pension next year despite not having paid NI all these years .


Quite correct - you don't have to continue NI contributions if you are not working. However, you will only get a pension based on your
contributions when you reach retirement age. In my case, by continuing to pay in each year I can improve my state pension amount because
despite having paid "full contributions" for 42 years I was "contracted out" via my employer pension scheme during that time. This means
that some of my contributions went to that scheme, meaning I cannot get the maximum state pension. However, I can improve my state
pension by continuing to pay in, and the returns on what you pay in compared to the higher pension are quite favourable. The only catch is you
have to live long enough to benefit!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:35 am 
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Good answer Jonno .


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:53 am 
jonno wrote:
COYS wrote:
Fair or not Fair, it is what it is, UK National Health is not based on what you have payed in over the years, but where you live.....dont see the point of crying, isnt going to change a thing.


I'm not "crying" about anything - I thought this was a forum for various forms of discussion. To me, the "rules" as they stand don't make sense and I'm still waiting
for somebody to justify the reasoning behind them. It's obviously something the UK government has done in an attempt to save money, the same way they have
denied pensioners in other countries the RPI pension increase. Still no logical justification for it.

Since when have Politicians been, fair or logical?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:05 pm 
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vine wrote:
:evil: :evil: If all the money that myself and my wife paid into national insurance, plus the employers contributions coffers had been paid into a pension fund during our working lives we would be able to afford the best private medical attention anywhere in the world.
Born in 1943 I started work on my 15th Birthday in 1958. I paid in for 50 years to people who'd never paid, my great uncle for example born 1878 who lived with us until he died. I wouldn't feel guilty about anything with the amount of money our government dishes out in Overseas Aid and immigrants who've never paid a penny into the system.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:51 pm 
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A few post back we were talking about voluntary contributions . I found out the amount you have to pay and as Jonno said , it is quite good .

"Opportunity for those retiring before state pension age

People who retire early before their state pension age may not be able to top up their state pension as much as those who carry on working to state pension age.
However, this disadvantage can be remedied if they elect to pay class 3 NI contributions for their years before state pension age. These contributions are a reduced flat rate of £14.10 a week or £733 a year. Paying this contribution for one year could add £4.45 a week or £231 per year to their state pension paid for life.
This is extremely good value and an attractive option for members retiring earlier than state pension age who do not qualify for the full rate of the New State Pension. "


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:01 am 
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Sounds absolutely marvellous!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:31 am 
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Number6 wrote:
A few post back we were talking about voluntary contributions . I found out the amount you have to pay and as Jonno said , it is quite good .

"Opportunity for those retiring before state pension age

People who retire early before their state pension age may not be able to top up their state pension as much as those who carry on working to state pension age.
However, this disadvantage can be remedied if they elect to pay class 3 NI contributions for their years before state pension age. These contributions are a reduced flat rate of £14.10 a week or £733 a year. Paying this contribution for one year could add £4.45 a week or £231 per year to their state pension paid for life.
This is extremely good value and an attractive option for members retiring earlier than state pension age who do not qualify for the full rate of the New State Pension. "


Yes, it is a pretty good deal IMHO. Plus, if you contact the NI helpline they can set up an automatic request for payment which they will send to you
at the end of each tax year - you can make the payment (from a UK bank account, although I believe it has to be registered to a UK address) over the phone or possibly
online once they have their online payments system working. That way you don't forget to do it! This is what I have done.
It's also worth remembering that you can delay taking your state pension which will have the effect of increasing it when you do so and I believe that is also (currently) a
good deal if you can afford to delay taking it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:11 am 
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Idol

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:33 pm
Posts: 722
How much do you actually lose per week from your pension if you don't make any contributions at all?

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