Paphos People

The Paphos and District Information Site

It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:10 pm


Mr-Woo Chinese and Thai Restaurant

The Haris Bar Restaurant

Buy Home in Cyprus banner

Simon the FLYman banner

Paphos Will Writers



All times are UTC + 2 hours [ DST ]


 



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:09 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:39 pm
Posts: 2735
Location: Tremithousa
And it's official, May rejects Sturgeons referendum until after the Brexit negotiations

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dum-demand

Perhaps someone needs to remind Sturgeon of the old adage - "When you're in a hole, STOP DIGGING !!!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:13 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
May has just gone and hung the silly mare out to dry and there is nothing Sturgeon can do about it

It's sad because leaving the EU will doubtless throw up a few problems, but Scotland will be out of the EU no matter what happens and the impending referendum after Brexit and possible loss of it's British market will stunt investment of all sorts in Scotland (starting from now)

I have no doubt many English companies and tourists will be put off spending their money in Scotland too as relations between the two are bound to be soured by the entirely understandable decision of May to put the whole thing on the back burner whilst she fries some bigger fish

Scotland doesn't want a referendum and Scotland does not want to leave the Union-the current polls would back that very reasonable assumption up 100%. To carry on in the manner she has done is economic vandalism of the highest order that will most hurt the ordinary Scots she jokingly purports to represent


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:27 pm 
Offline
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:19 pm
Posts: 1092
Location: Rochdale, UK and Konia/Antigua
http://newsthump.com/2017/03/16/nicola- ... ay-for-it/

Nicola Sturgeon announces plans to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall, and England is going to pay for it.

I'll chip in!!

_________________
Age improves with good wine


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:05 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
Big Nev wrote:
http://newsthump.com/2017/03/16/nicola-sturgeon-announces-plans-to-rebuild-hadrians-wall-and-england-is-going-to-pay-for-it/

Nicola Sturgeon announces plans to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall, and England is going to pay for it.

I'll chip in!!

Maybe her redundant ship & distillery workers will get the job of moving the wall a bit further north .... from English soil ! :pow


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:26 pm 
What do people on here think,would be the outcome of the Scottish Referendum if the people of England could vote along with the Scots...serious question.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:53 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
What can you really say ?

The SNP’s “new” position on Europe now merely confirms what everyone with an ounce of common sense would have realised at the last referendum- ie they were lying through their teeth when they said they could leave the Union and stay in the EU outwith the Euro, but I can only presume that to the hardcore, "useful" idiots that admission does not matter one iota?

Pretty much all they now have to offer are threats, demands and lies to promote an unworkable pipe dream and they don’t care how much damage they do to achieve it, or even what the consequences will be if the Scottish people were ever silly enough to be hoodwinked by this hokum

They don’t have a majority in the Scottish Parliament (although they can get one courtesy of the Greens), they only represent a minority of the Scottish electorate, they claim they have a mandate to call another referendum when nothing of the sort actually exists, and have cornered themselves into a situation where if they get a referendum within 2 years they will lose it, but if they wait until May’s time scale they will be so discredited they won’t have a hope in hell of achieving the majority in the 2021 Scottish Parliament to implement it.

So May is right in what she has done- Scotland has all the devolved powers it needs to promote Scottish growth, improve education standards and reduce social hardship. Let the SNP prove they can do that then Scotland may indeed have a place as a functioning self financing independent European state. She (May) has let the babies have their rattle, the shaking of that rattle will be most annoying, but not dangerous enough to harm anyone except the Scots, but it has enough rope on the end of it for the SNP to hang themselves.

Sturgeon has three choices
A: go with the Hadrian’s Wall option

B- continue to allow Scottish educational standards to drop and poverty increase in the hope Scotland can produce a new generation of ill informed malcontents willing to blame the English for all the problems of her own making and thereby keeping the cult alive .

C- hope that the constant whinging and demands lead to the UK Parliament voting to break up the Union and boot the Scots out (the answer to the last posting's question :lol: )


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:02 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
COYS wrote:
What do people on here think,would be the outcome of the Scottish Referendum if the people of England could vote along with the Scots...serious question.

If they got rid of the SNP, I think we could remain as UK ..... but they are really driving a wedge between the countries of the UK !
They are childish, selfish, vindictive and illogical (wanting to become independent and then re-join the EU).
They are, also, incompetent at running the finances of a country (of only about one twelfth of the UK).
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:02 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:45 pm
Posts: 1874
Location: Kissonerga
I think it only proper to point out that Hadrian's Wall is entirely in England, running from Bowness-on-Solway in Cumbria to Wallsend in Newcastle. I don't think the people living between the wall and the Scottish Border would approve of the independent Scots (were there to be such a thing) getting their hands on that land. A large fence somewhat farther north would have to do instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:49 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
Comedy is like a frog- dissect it and it dies


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:41 pm 
Offline
Junior

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:16 am
Posts: 76
The SNP continually say that the UK should take into account the opinions of the majority of the Scottish people (but a minority in the UK) in their dealings over Brexit and other matters. As a result of the perceived 'mistreatment' of the Scots they are now pushing for a second referendum on independence. Hypothetically, if they gain independence with a marginal majority, I would ask how they intend treating those Scots who do not vote for independence and if, by area, such as the Scottish borders, it can be seen that a majority voted against independence whether they will be allowed to remain in the rump UK.

Surely the same argument would apply?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:41 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
If Scotland votes for independence then regardless of the size of the majority then that should go ahead, but any such referendum has to conducted democratically in order for the result to be respected and enforceable

First you need a mandate to call a referendum, some sort of apples and pears conclusion from the EU vote is not a mandate :smilielol

In order to get a mandate she has to call a Scottish election with an independence referendum as part of a manifesto.That is an entirely reasonable request

If she gets a majority in the Scottish Parliament on the basis of that she is indeed entirely entitled to ask May for a referendum and May would be entirely out of order in refusing one.

Sturgeon of course is not going to do that because she knows the vast majority of Scots do not want another referendum, and she would never get the majority required in the Scottish Parliament to even ask for one.

Voters who were banned from voting in the last referendum would still be able to vote in an Scottish election and turn out in droves to vote in a Scottish election, effectively cooking her goose (even if those Scots still resident in Scotland have not already gotten fed up of the constant whinging, moaning, bullying and abuse of democracy and power from the SNP)

This is what all this bluster is about- Sturgeon wants to try a force a legally binding referendum on the people of Scotland that the people of Scotland do not want, using all sorts of made up pretexts to do so.

It's a last desperate throw of the dice for the SNP to get another referendum (that they will still probably lose) but now represents the best/only of winning before all their economic and educational failures come home to roost

May and the Scottish people are perfectly entitled to wait and see what sort of deal the UK gets from the EU before even considering the future of Scotland. We all now know that Scotland is leaving the EU along with the UK (it would have had to leave the EU if it had become independent anyway :lol: ) but the SNP are seeing their chances of achieving their goal diminishing by the month, so that is why we are seeing tactics that would not be out of place in a banana republic

Any Scot who thinks that Sturgeon is doing the international reputation of Scotland any good by the constant bleating should take a good long hard look at themselves. Talk of holding illegal referendums, walking away from debt, unilaterally declaring independence etc etc are the stuff of pariah states like Turkey, the TRNC and North Korea - the vast majority of Scots deserve better


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:21 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
:clap :goodpost Ilex.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:33 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:39 pm
Posts: 2735
Location: Tremithousa
Nail on head! :agree


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:27 am 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Ilex wrote:
In order to get a mandate she has to call a Scottish election with an independence referendum as part of a manifesto.That is an entirely reasonable request

If she gets a majority in the Scottish Parliament on the basis of that she is indeed entirely entitled to ask May for a referendum and May would be entirely out of order in refusing one.

Sturgeon of course is not going to do that because she knows the vast majority of Scots do not want another referendum, and she would never get the majority required in the Scottish Parliament to even ask for one.


I think she is going to take it to the Scottish Parliament; there's a lot of do as I say and not as I do about.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-39305989

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:37 am 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
The last Scots referendum was a very bitter affair with all sorts of duplicity and bullying going on. 75% of the Scottish population are more than happy with the current political status quo regarding the Union and do not want another referendum.They just want to get on with their lives.

If you call a referendum you force people to make a choice and of course people are forced into making a decision that they really don't want to make . My step daughter was subjected to some quite appalling bullying from Cybernats and people at her work because she revealed that she voted to Remain in the Union :evil: Presumably she and many others would be subjected to the same next time round as part of another SNP independence "campaign" :evil:

Another relative who is Scottish born and bred and works for a major Scottish company was not allowed to vote because the his job with that company was based in London, so he was thereby disqualified from voting would you believe :evil: his and others exclusion was designed to increase the chances of a leave vote (for every Sean Connery there are probably 5 less prominent people who would vote the other way to him)

So yes, Sturgeon can cobble enough votes together to pass a motion in the Scottish Parliament despite having lost her party majority at the last Scottish election, but this will be no more than an exercise annoyance, blame shifting and vandalism that will mean absolutely nothing to anyone except the hardcore fanatics

If she wants a proper mandate she should go to the people and get one- if there is such an overwhelming case for Independence that should be easy, but because there is no such overwhelming support and because a big pile of lies spouted by the SNP (oil, EU Sterling) have now been confirmed as such she hasn't got a hope in Hades of getting it.

Nationalism and the right to self determination are two very strong forces in politics, national socialism is an altogether different beast but that is what we are seeing with the SNP. It promotes a policy of hate that divides and bullies in the hope it can achieve it's aims and the latest developments are the clearest sign yet that this is the true ethos of the SNP.

They cannot win another mandate to call another referendum and they cannot win a referendum without resorting to all sorts of trickery and bullying.

The vast majority of sensible Scots would boycott an unofficial referendum, but that would not stop the SNP claiming a "victory" with 100% of a 20% turnout :roll: . That is why they now want an illegal referendum that will make Scotland look ridiculous, because that is now the only "referendum" they can win :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:43 am 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Ilex wrote:
The last Scots referendum was a very bitter affair with all sorts of duplicity and bullying going on. 75% of the Scottish population are more than happy with the current political status quo regarding the Union and do not want another referendum.They just want to get on with their lives.

If you call a referendum you force people to make a choice and of course people are forced into making a decision that they really don't want to make .

They cannot win another mandate to call another referendum and they cannot win a referendum without resorting to all sorts of trickery and bullying.

The vast majority of sensible Scots would boycott an unofficial referendum, but that would not stop the SNP claiming a "victory" with 100% of a 20% turnout :roll: . That is why they now want an illegal referendum that will make Scotland look ridiculous, because that is now the only "referendum" they can win :roll:


Why is illegal if they vote in the Scottish Parliament for another referendum, isn't this democratic; I would think it's up to the Scottish people to decide what they want. Why is everyone so worried. I think the Brexit Camp can't really comment regarding bitterness, bullying, duplicity and trickery; a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:45 am 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:47 pm
Posts: 277
Location: A nomad of no fixed abode.
But .......

.... just WHO are the Scottish people that get a vote in this proposed referendum?

Should it be limited to people who were born in the Country and still reside there. Or include emigrants as well.

Or is it like before ..... all the people who currently reside in the country, including any immigrant who has been there for a few months but born elsewhere.

IMO it should be those born there and still remain there.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:56 am 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
You are asking the wrong question :lol: - you should be asking why Sturgeon is not going about the process in a patently legal and democratic manner . It would impossible for May to deny Scotland a referendum under such circumstances, although it is entirely correct to see what deal the EU and Britain reach before letting it take place.

There are no comparisons with Brexit in this case. Scotland,under Section 30 which controls the transfer of power from Westminster to the devolved Scottish Parlaiment, is part of a legally binding agreement.

Until such time as Sturgeon has a clear legal base to call a referendum it cannot and should not happen, and an opinion poll or a cobbled together majority in Parliament is not clear legal base. If it was a clear legal Scotland would be calling for a referendum every 6 months until the SNP got the result they want (that surely is not so difficult to work out? )


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:16 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
"But .......

.... just WHO are the Scottish people that get a vote in this proposed referendum?

Should it be limited to people who were born in the Country and still reside there. Or include emigrants as well.

Or is it like before ..... all the people who currently reside in the country, including any immigrant who has been there for a few months but born elsewhere.

IMO it should be those born there and still remain there"

Which "country" are you talking about- do you really think that Scots living in England (both part of one country, the UK) should be denied a vote on Scotland's future as they were last time? Many Scots are on temporary work placements with a English address - why should they not be allowed to vote. Do Scots really have to live their entire adult life in Scotland to guarantee a say in their country's future. The country "Scotland" would not have much of a future if Scottish companies could not "export" their Scottish personnel abroad :smilielol

The 15 year rule to allow all ex pats to vote in all national elections seems pretty fair to me and should be the same criteria for referendums too (why that wasn't the case with the last Scottish referendum is pretty clear surely ?)

Why do you think that should be scrapped? If anything it should be scrapped to allow all nationals to vote in all elections regardless of time spent abroad, particularity as the last Scottish referendum saw any and all EU citizens living in Scotland given the vote, regardless of how little time they had been in the country and despite he fact they could not vote in a National Election :doh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:39 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
I and millions like me believe there is every comparison regarding duplicity and trickery with the Brexit Vote. It appears many are now running scared of what will happen regarding Scotland and a possible break up of the Union. Scotland is not a colony of England and I would hazard a guess telling the Scots to do as they're told will not go down very well in many area's of Scotland. There is also nothing to stop Scotland having a non binding referendum to determine which way the political wind is blowing; just as the EU Referendum was but look where that has led us. Like any politician Sturgeon is grabbing an opportunity, an opportunity the English who voted Brexit have given her; I'm sure any other politician would have done the same.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
I can only assume that by wanting Scotland to have a second referendum that in some way suggests you think the UK should have another one and on and on until you get the result you prefer. You may think that a mature stance I don't.

I am a great respecter of democracy, but democracy is a process, not a series of unresolved battles.

If the process is seen to be fair then everyone should accept it. If the consequences of that process are not what you like that is tough. If you can't accept a democratic vote you have no real understanding of what democracy is, and that is a very sad trait

If Scotland holds another fair referendum that fulfils it's legal obligations to the rest of the UK and it's responsibilities to the people of Scotland then I'm all for it and will abide by the result no problem. The process for that I have already outlined and that process has nothing to do with being undemocratic or repressive, in fact it entirely the opposite and the only way to avoid such unpleasantantries as mob rule and civil war :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:59 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
I'm not the only one who thinks the whole situation is shambolic and this from the Daily Mail. The Times posted that support for a Brexit has now dropped to around 44%, isn't that a wake up call; I do believe many dyed in the wool Brexit supporters are running scared as they see support for a Brexit is falling away? If we followed your reasoning once a party won an election that would be the will of the people and we can't change our minds, to me democracy is about reasoned argument and persuading people to change their point of view. I said many months ago we were heading for a "Little England", even Northern Ireland is talking about leaving the Union; the whole situation is a disaster and for little or no gain.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... -Navy.html

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:48 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
All speculation-Britain has voted to leave the EU but it is not leaving Europe.

Both the EU and the UK need a deal that suits both and no one has any idea what form that will take or how it will affect anyone (although there will be an impact). There has to be a price for leaving the EU, because if there was not a price for leaving everyone would have already left :smilielol and it will be a very difficult task to implement for career politicians who didn't want to leave in the first place :lol: Cameron quit because he didn't want to do the hard work involved with leaving :smilielol

One thing is for sure- the EU is not working as well for the UK as it was for the EU itself (and those career politicians) and those circumstances are being replicated throughout other member states of the EU.

Britain needs an alternative relationship with the EU and leaving was the only way to bring that about. What the new relationship will be who knows, but the democratic decision to leave has to be and will be reflected in that new relationship in a way that could never have been done had we decided to remain.

Democracy will shape the future relationship we have with he EU but the existing one was and is now untenable - it's that simple. Failure to understand or accept that is the ignorance of the highest order I'm sad to say

The current Scottish situation has nothing to do with Brexit - If Scotland had voted to leave the UK it would no longer be a member of the EU and the EU is not as attractive a proposition to the Scots as the SNP were making out(hence the policy shift)

Bottom line is you would seemingly be happy to see properly organised, authorised and legal referendums overturned by half-assed , contrived and illegal ones if it suited your point of view and you clearly want one such referendum to set the precedent for another :roll: I'm sure Mugabe and Putin will be delighted to see their version of democracy being so easily exported to the UK :roll:

ps for a Remainer to be posting links to the Daily Mail shows how desperate you are :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:58 pm 
Offline
Major

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:18 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Chloraka
Jim B wrote:
I and millions like me believe there is every comparison regarding duplicity and trickery with the Brexit Vote. It appears many are now running scared of what will happen regarding Scotland and a possible break up of the Union. Scotland is not a colony of England and I would hazard a guess telling the Scots to do as they're told will not go down very well in many area's of Scotland. There is also nothing to stop Scotland having a non binding referendum to determine which way the political wind is blowing; just as the EU Referendum was but look where that has led us. Like any politician Sturgeon is grabbing an opportunity, an opportunity the English who voted Brexit have given her; I'm sure any other politician would have done the same.

Jim


The EU Referendum was a binding one - the Government's own leaflet stated that it would implement whatever was voted for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:01 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Jonno

I don't think so; it was advisory and not binding.

Ilex

It's not me you should be telling, it's those idiots who are Brexit at any cost like Duncan Smith, Rees-Mogg and the rest of them, they are quite prepared to sink Britain to get out of the EU; you should really look into what is driving Rees-Mogg and believe me it's not patriotism. The Brexit negotiations are in the hands of a gang of lunatics and it's obvious they are not interested in the well being of the UK but only the well being of their own agendas. As a general "we", we were doing OK out of the EU but of course that depends where you are from, the money may have been UK money but it was directed to the places that needed it and not to the South East that benefited most prior to joining, Cornwall is a case in point.
Why are you so scared of a second referendum, is it because you are aware the first result was a fluke and know that a second one would reverse the original. Many countries re-run referendums, Ireland and Columbia did it not so long ago, all part of the democratic process and not something you would find Putin or Mugabe supporting.
Unlike you I don't suggest I'm an expert on the mindset of the Scottish people though the many Scots I do know don't take kindly to being treated as second class citizens and that is how May (an un-elected Prime Minister) is acting towards them.


Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:26 pm 
Offline
Major

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:18 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Chloraka
Jim B wrote:
Jonno

I don't think so; it was advisory and not binding.

Ilex

It's not me you should be telling, it's those idiots who are Brexit at any cost like Duncan Smith, Rees-Mogg and the rest of them, they are quite prepared to sink Britain to get out of the EU; you should really look into what is driving Rees-Mogg and believe me it's not patriotism. The Brexit negotiations are in the hands of a gang of lunatics and it's obvious they are not interested in the well being of the UK but only the well being of their own agendas. As a general "we", we were doing OK out of the EU but of course that depends where you are from, the money may have been UK money but it was directed to the places that needed it and not to the South East that benefited most prior to joining, Cornwall is a case in point.
Why are you so scared of a second referendum, is it because you are aware the first result was a fluke and know that a second one would reverse the original. Many countries re-run referendums, Ireland and Columbia did it not so long ago, all part of the democratic process and not something you would find Putin or Mugabe supporting.
Unlike you I don't suggest I'm an expert on the mindset of the Scottish people though the many Scots I do know don't take kindly to being treated as second class citizens and that is how May (an un-elected Prime Minister) is acting towards them.


Jim



From the Government's own leaflet which was delivered to every home in the UK;

An important decision for the UK
On Thursday, 23 June there will be a referendum. It’s your opportunity to decide if the UK remains in the European Union (EU).

It’s a big decision. One that will affect you, your family and your children for decades to come.

A once in a generation decision
The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.

This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.


Available here;

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160815143715/https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:27 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
The Tories are not very popular in Scotland and I suppose that part of the reasoning behind the Scottish Parliament was to save Scotland from the tyranny of likes of Thatcher. Incredibly enough it's now May protecting the Scots from the tyranny of the SNP :lol:

Brexit is being done entirely legally, and the UK is strong enough to follow through on that decision because it is not in the Euro and cannot be bullied into changing it's mind like some other EU countries

I am still waiting for you to tell me or anyone else why the SNP does not take the legally accepted route to another referendum? No one is asking/forcing Scotland to vote again, they are just expecting them to do it properly if they want to change their minds :roll:

The UK referendum was indeed advisory, but the Supreme Court would surely have ruled it binding on the basis of the Parliamentary Sovereignty principle which passed the referendum decision in the first place. I can assure you if it was not going to be found legally binding Gina Miller and her army of QC's would have challenged that aspect of it, not the implementation aspect of it :lol:

Britain is a wonderful example of a legally guided democracy- it so sad that people who have no regard for any opinion other than their own cannot appreciate it

ps 56 % of Cornwall voted OUT - I doubt your concerns are their concerns and their perception of the EU obviously differs from yours :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:36 am 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
I'm well aware that Cornwall voted out as did Wales but it is now dawning on the people who live there that they have killed the Goose that lays the Golden Egg and that is why many are rethinking their position on Brexit; unfortunately many wanted to have their cake and to eat it.

Just to clarify; Ms Miller is just one of many plaintiffs against the Brexit and they have all been grouped together under one name (hers) so it is a joint court case rather than a single action and her army of QC's are paid for by people who support her actions. I personally admire the lady for being prepared to stand up to the death threats, insults and abuse from so called civilised people for something she believes in.

Contrary to your opinion the Tory's are quite well supported in Scotland, it is the archaic voting system of first past the post that causes them problems and I think they received around 15% of the vote last time out which wasn't too bad considering there was a lot of tactical voting to try and block the SNP.

As I keep telling you, Scotland is a sovereign country in a Union with several other countries, if they want to test the waters on independence it is entirely up to them; you are looking on Scotland as either a subservient partner or worse still a colony of England. Just because the timing doesn't suit you; why is it illegal to have an "advisory" referendum?

Jim

PS, this may interest you

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/v ... lic/08/02/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:45 am 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 322
JimB I am interested in how you know that many people are regretting their decision to vote out,especially Cornwall and Wales?
All the people I know seem to consider that they made the correct decision whether out or in and I have yet to meet one person who has changed their mind. I'm sure there must be some out there but who are they? Certainly a lot of our family live in S Wales and they and apparently their friends and neighbours do not regret their decision on their vote. The majority of our friends,family,aquaintances in the UK are normal working class people who have loads of common sense and are offended when people believe that they believed all the spin doctors. Indeed as people in Stoke would say " there's nowt as daft as that lad"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:41 am 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Well if Polls like the Times are to be believed in that only 44% are now in favour of the Brexit then I would suggest someone has changed their mind. Their have been several articles relating to Cornwall about the cuts in spending of about 60 million a year once leaving the EU

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 01311.html

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/ ... t-funding/

I could take you to my home city and the people their who voted 64% in favour of remain would disagree with the common sense of the people of Stoke; I also have friends and acquaintances from all over the country, most of them well traveled and like me they can see a disaster waiting to happen.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:19 am 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
It isn't illegal to have an advisory referendum, but it childish, divisive and provocative ,not in Scotland's best interests and not wanted by the people of Scotland- those should be reasons enough for any sensible person or politician :roll:

The vast majority of decent people have accepted the UK result regardless of how they voted or would vote again and are moving on as a result of the understanding the principles that underpin democracy. It is a minority of Remainers who refuse to accept democracy or the clearly stated opinion of 52% of the population that are the problem

The Cabinet has a majority of Remainers in it. That will be reflected in whatever deal the UK reaches with he EU (they both need one) In order to get the best deal we have to leave and we have to make it clear that we walk if their is no deal. That is why the stance of the hard line Bexiteers is quite right. You do not go into negotiations with your trousers down

The only way to get a working relationship with the EU that reflects the majority opinion of the British people was to Leave- there was no negotiating with Brussels as long as we were in the EU. Cameron proved that

Brussels does not lay golden eggs :lol: - it takes the UK budget contributions and UK raised tariffs on imports and spends it on projects they deem more beneficial to the EU than the UK.

Whatever EU funds that they spent in Cornwall obviously did not make up for the decimation of the UK fishing industry, the right of hundreds o thousands of poor Eastern Europeans to turn up in the UK looking for low paid work whilst being entitled to benefits, hospital care, housing and education on arrival, and the refusal of the EU to do anything about illegal immigrants arriving in Greece, heading through Europe unchecked to Calais and from there trying to illegally enter the UK.

I can see why the good people of Cornwall worked out what was in he best interests and I have no doubt they would vote the same way again.To suggest otherwise is condescending in the extreme :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 am 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
:agree Ilex.
Those, who fear leaving the EU, continue to quote spurious reports of recent 'polls' ......
The polls did not fair very well in the last General Election or the Referendum to leave the EU ..... Did they ?
Such people are 'tilting at windmills' and, being gullible to such biased 'reporting', they will just have to be tolerated (as they do not recognise the wood from the trees).
No alternative now ... !
We ARE leaving the EU, so they only harm their own future prospects by not supporting the democratic result of the referendum.
:uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:58 am 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
It isn't illegal to have an advisory referendum, but it childish, divisive and provocative ,not in Scotland's best interests and not wanted by the people of Scotland- those should be reasons enough for any sensible person or politician :roll:

How do you know what the good people of Scotland want? :roll:

The vast majority of decent people have accepted the UK result regardless of how they voted or would vote again and are moving on as a result of the understanding the principles that underpin democracy. It is a minority of Remainers who refuse to accept democracy or the clearly stated opinion of 52% of the population that are the problem

Again; how do you know? The only way to find out is have another Referendum

The Cabinet has a majority of Remainers in it. That will be reflected in whatever deal the UK reaches with he EU (they both need one) In order to get the best deal we have to leave and we have to make it clear that we walk if their is no deal. That is why the stance of the hard line Bexiteers is quite right. You do not go into negotiations with your trousers down

Most of the Cabinet are more interested in saving their own jobs (like all politicians) than the wellbeing of the country and the British people

The only way to get a working relationship with the EU that reflects the majority opinion of the British people was to Leave- there was no negotiating with Brussels as long as we were in the EU. Cameron proved that

So you cut off your nose to spite your face, brilliant political acuemen

Brussels does not lay golden eggs :lol: - it takes the UK budget contributions and UK raised tariffs on imports and spends it on projects they deem more beneficial to the EU than the UK.

If you read back, that is what I actually said, other regions like Cornwall and Wales have benefitted much more than they ever did under Central Government; at least everyone was getting a fair share


Whatever EU funds that they spent in Cornwall obviously did not make up for the decimation of the UK fishing industry, the right of hundreds o thousands of poor Eastern Europeans to turn up in the UK looking for low paid work whilst being entitled to benefits, hospital care, housing and education on arrival, and the refusal of the EU to do anything about illegal immigrants arriving in Greece, heading through Europe unchecked to Calais and from there trying to illegally enter the UK.

No-one can just turn up and get benefits, no matter where they are from as there is a qualifying period but that is another myth that is spread by people who don’t bother checking. The UK Government can claim back family credits paid to any EU Citizen from their country but the UK doesn't bother; whose fault is that? You could ask yourself why other countries in the EU have thriving fishing industries (Portugal, Spain); isn’t it down to the British boat owners flogging their fishing licenses to the highest bidder.

I can see why the good people of Cornwall worked out what was in he best interests and I have no doubt they would vote the same way again.To suggest otherwise is condescending in the extreme :roll:

Did you bother reading the links? They are issues raised by Cornish people, not me. :roll:

Monica

I have no ties with the UK whatsoever so can't see how I will harm my own future prospects and the biased reporting was from the Times and guess who owns that? Gullible; right :smilielol


Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:22 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
It is nothing short of incredible that all those screaming for additional referendums are those that can't accept the result of the perfectly fair ones.

Quoting links really means nothing- pretty much everything written about Brexit has a personal slant (which is why it is so divisive)

Bottom line is the UK voted to leave the EU in a once in a lifetime referendum, there isn't going to be another one and Britain is leaving the EU- whether you like that or not is now irrelevant, and there is very little point bleating on about irrelevancies. Calling referendums; flukes, won by lies, not legally binding, accusing people of not knowing that they were voting for etc etc is simply the stuff of babies.

The job of the country is now to make the best of the decision to leave, because that is what will ultimately now be in the country's best interests, but there are those that would deliberately try to undermine the UK's position in the hope they can still get their own way- which is a pretty sad of affairs.

No reasonable minded person can approve of Sturgeons ad hoc referendum. There is a perfectly legal, democratic and less divisive way to test the waters, but Sturgeon knows that all this bleating about independence now and during the EU negotiations actually weakens the UK's bargaining position with Brussels. That is why she is doing it and why JimB approves of it :roll:

By claiming the democratic high ground they are trying to kid people into thinking their motives are not the ones I have suggested- sad thing is they are fooling no one but themselves and they will find that out in due course

Holding a referendum about holding a referendum is obviously a bit silly, or does no one else realise that :lol: If you hold the second one on the basis of the first and then people change their minds as Jim says has happened you are going to look a bit stupid surely? That's why you do it properly in the first place and you do it once only :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:04 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
JimB quote :- "I have no ties with the UK whatsoever so can't see how I will harm my own future prospects and the biased reporting was from the Times and guess who owns that? Gullible; right
Jim"

So, you misunderstood my post.
I did not refer to you .... only the 'remoaners' in the UK.
You would be classed as 'just another outsider', who (whether gullible or not) does not have a vote in the matter, anyway !
;) ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:09 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Ilex wrote:
It is nothing short of incredible that all those screaming for additional referendums are those that can't accept the result of the perfectly fair ones.

Quoting links really means nothing- pretty much everything written about Brexit has a personal slant (which is why it is so divisive)

Bottom line is the UK voted to leave the EU in a once in a lifetime referendum, there isn't going to be another one and Britain is leaving the EU- whether you like that or not is now irrelevant, and there is very little point bleating on about irrelevancies. Calling referendums; flukes, won by lies, not legally binding, accusing people of not knowing that they were voting for etc etc is simply the stuff of babies.

The job of the country is now to make the best of the decision to leave, because that is what will ultimately now be in the country's best interests, but there are those that would deliberately try to undermine the UK's position in the hope they can still get their own way- which is a pretty sad of affairs.

No reasonable minded person can approve of Sturgeons ad hoc referendum. There is a perfectly legal, democratic and less divisive way to test the waters, but Sturgeon knows that all this bleating about independence now and during the EU negotiations actually weakens the UK's bargaining position with Brussels. That is why she is doing it and why JimB approves of it :roll:

By claiming the democratic high ground they are trying to kid people into thinking their motives are not the ones I have suggested- sad thing is they are fooling no one but themselves and they will find that out in due course

Holding a referendum abut holding a referendum is obviously a bit silly, or does no one else realise that :lol:


You make all kinds of insinuations but never actually answer anything and keep going off on tangents. I don't have to make the best of anything and I don't understand either why it has to be a once in a lifetime referendum;WHY; that is not democracy? I'm not on my own, there are millions with the same outlook and will keep fighting against something we believe is a total disaster for the UK; we are not going to roll over.

Your problem with the SNP appears to be they may spoil the party, well what did you expect? Did you expect them to just sit back and do what they are told for the greater good of England; I keep telling you they are a separate country with their own aspirations but you just don't appear to want to accept or understand that; the Scots do not want to leave the EU it's as simple as that but are being forced to by the English. It's not whether Jim B approves of it or not but what the Scots see as good for Scotland.

Jim

Monica

Can't you come up with something more original for a change :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:20 pm 
Offline
Rock Star

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:12 pm
Posts: 1157
Location: Paphos,District
Again or seem to forget that the referendum on leaving or remaining in the EU was not based on the regions of the U.K., it was "one mane one vote", and thousands of Scottish and Northern Irish citizens, like their Englsh and Welsh counterparts voted to leave...it was a majority decision and we, the UK opted to leave...it matters not what the majority in Scotland or Northern Ireland voted....or indeed Londoners....the "We don't like the result, let's have another" mentality does little to strengthen the arm of the UK negotiators, all it is doing is giving hope to the EU technocrats who know that without the UK, or without a resonable and fair deal with the UK, they are in deep doo doo.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:22 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
But Jim an independent Scotland would have had to leave the EU too and would probably never attain the qualifying budget criteria to rejoin without an austerity programme of the type Greece is undergoing.It also would hvae to adopt the Euro to ensure compliance with future Brussels budget targets

So if the EU was so important to Scots surely Salmond should have explained that them last he tried to hoodwink them into leaving the Union, because they would have been out of the EU too ?

Sturgeon now says that she wants Scotland out of the EU and with some sort of Norway type arrangement instead :lol: . How does she know that the UK might not end up with a similar sort of deal with the EU. No one knows what that deal will be or what aspects of the current relationship will be retained.

Sturgeon really ought to be concentrating on improving the declining Scottish educational standards, it's ever slowing economic growth rates and it's massive structural deficit. If she can do that people might start taking her and Scotland a bit more seriously and Scotland's chance of being a viable independent nation would be greatly increased.


Last edited by Ilex on Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:23 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
JimB quote :- "Can't you come up with something more original for a change "

Only the truth ..... Even if you don't like it !
:smilielol


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:24 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
:goodpost :agree
Hudswell wrote:
Again or seem to forget that the referendum on leaving or remaining in the EU was not based on the regions of the U.K., it was "one mane one vote", and thousands of Scottish and Northern Irish citizens, like their Englsh and Welsh counterparts voted to leave...it was a majority decision and we, the UK opted to leave...it matters not what the majority in Scotland or Northern Ireland voted....or indeed Londoners....the "We don't like the result, let's have another" mentality does little to strengthen the arm of the UK negotiators, all it is doing is giving hope to the EU technocrats who know that without the UK, or without a resonable and fair deal with the UK, they are in deep doo doo.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:35 pm 
Theresa May......Let my people Go :crylaughin
https://youtu.be/gtLcELU1brA


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:41 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
What most Scots now realise (but Jimb obviously doesn't) is that best productive relationship Scotland can now have with the EU is the one that the UK government negotiates with Brussels.

An independent Scotland would be out on it's ear with the EU. that has been proved to be the case and effectively admitted to be so by Sturgeon's latest policy shift

It does not have a strong economy to warrant EU entry, Spain has said it will block it's entry and there is no way that Sturgeon screaming at them demanding this and that is going to have the slightest chance of succeeding in getting Scotland a back door entry to the EU :lol:

So all this bleating from Sturgeon is not protecting Scottish interests or their EU prospects - it is simply damaging them because it won't be allowed to derail Brexit :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:09 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
You keep making bold statements about the Scots but they are only your opinions, nothing of substance and the other day the Spanish Foreign Minister didn't say anything about blocking the Scots joining the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ship-of-eu

I can name several other countries who didn't have a strong economy when they joined either but they've done quite well out of it.

Hudswell

Yes I am aware that it was an all inclusive vote; does that clear that up for you? As I keep saying continuously, Scotland is a separate country and if they are unhappy with the way the Unions direction is going then they have every right in my opinion to decide what is best for themselves; if a majority of Scots believe being part of the EU is preferable to being part of the United Kingdom. Now if I was a Scot I would be putting the considerations of my country before that of England but others believe that the Scots should put the considerations of England before their own country which I find rather incredulous.

Monica

It's only the truth as you see it. :roll:

Jim

PS looks like there has been a call for reinforcements from the Brexit Brigade. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:27 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
"I can name several other countries who didn't have a strong economy when they joined either but they've done quite well out of it"

and I can name some that had a strong economy when they joined but have now have gone virtually bankrupt and have unemployment rates of over 25% :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:36 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
:celeb2 :clap ARTICLE 50 WILL BE TRIGGERED ON WEDNESDAY, 29th MARCH, 2017 .... message from 10, Downing Street !

Any comment, Jim ???


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:41 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Monica

She can pull the trigger but she will be firing a blank. ;)

Ilex

The only strong economy I can think you're talking about is the Cypriot one and that taking a nose dive was self inflicted by trying to bale the Greeks out.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:04 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
Jim B wrote:
Monica

She can pull the trigger but she will be firing a blank

She doesn't need live ammo ..... She will knock them down with a feather ! :celeb2


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:15 pm 
Offline
Star

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 844
Churchill will be turning in his grave.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:33 pm 
Offline
Top of the pops

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:51 am
Posts: 1611
Jim B wrote:
Churchill will be rolling in his grave.

Jim

Yes ! ..... Laughing ! .... because his work was not in vain (at last).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Referendum Two
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:49 pm 
Offline
Regular

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:51 am
Posts: 367
"The only strong economy I can think you're talking about is the Cypriot one and that taking a nose dive was self inflicted by trying to bale the Greeks out"

If you take the time and have the inclination to look into Italy since the introduction of the Euro you will find that not to be the case.

Spain, Portugal ,Italy and France all had lower debt, higher growth rates and lower unemployment prior to joining the Euro and they are stuck with the low growth rates, higher debt and higher unemployment rates until they quit the Euro

That is not conjecture or speculation or supposition- that is demonstrably and statistically provable fact


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Paphos people botton - viewtopic_body


All times are UTC + 2 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Kapnos Airport Shuttle



Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group