Paphos People

Although Scotland is clearly a country and part of the United Kingdom (through choice in 1707) it is clearly not at the moment a sovereign country is it? If it was, it wouldn't need independence and it would have the power to hold a referendum without reference to Westminster. Devolution gave Scotland many extra powers to decide certain issues (including authority over tax rates) but it didn't restore sovereignty. Scotland is still subject to the laws of the UK Parliament in which it has a proportionate and representative voice (if anyone can call the 3.8 million votes for UKIP and 1 seat in the HoC compared with 1.4 million votes for the SNP and 56 seats proportionate or representative).

Authority to hold a referendum on independence is still the preserve of the UK Parliament - not of Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP or the Scottish Parliament. What they should be doing is tabling a motion in the House of Commons to call for a referendum, but we can predict the result of that can't we? What they seem to be doing, however, is to put their fingers in their ears and just screaming "foul". But it's not, is it? As Ilex has previously stated, why doesn't she just call for an early election in Scotland to see if she has the backing of the Scottish people on her stand, rather than holding a referendum about a referendum? Oh yes! We can all predict the answer to that too...

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Initium Sapientiae Timor Domini

And through choice in 2014.

As I said David there is nothing preventing Scotland having an advisory referendum and if you want to be pedantic about the word sovereign then OK but they have their own parliament and can vote for an advisory referendum if they want to and there's not a thing the Government can do about it. Sturgeon is not in power to make the Brexit supporters happy..


Monica

Winston Churchill was a great supporter of European Union.

Ilex
No time just yet to get back to you but I will

Jim

If you do please try and it make a cogent argument based on fact (statistical will do), not a link to a biased blog, article or EU sponsored institution

ps Churchill was long dead before we had the current EU, so by a simple process of deduction he never supported it and if you say union didn't mean the European Union you should not have used a capital letter

If Sturgeon can call an "advisory" referendum then why is she not doing that?

Winston Churchill quote :- "We are with Europe but not of it; we are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea."

He died 24th Jan, 1965 ..... and I don't think he was psychic ! ..... EU (founded Nov, 1993) ????

Try this

https://sayyes2europe.eu/2016/03/13/how ... rt-brexit/

Or this

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-712 ... 65ce54b926

But of course you won't because it doesn't suit your views.

Ilex

At least I try and post information that is available and not just invent it and when caught out go off on another tangent; again you write it off because it doesn't fit in with the world according to Ilex.

And

Jonno

As far as I'm concerned Sturgeon is First Minister in Scotland and can do what ever she wants to do.


Jim

"As far as I'm concerned Sturgeon is First Minister in Scotland and can do what ever she wants to do."

Sorry Jim, but I think May trumps Sturgeon, she's the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and can do whatever is in line with the constitution. As should Sturgeon.

So you quote a piece by Quentin Peel :-
European Community correspondent and Brussels bureau chief, Moscow correspondent, and chief correspondent in Germany. He was also foreign editor and international affairs editor from 1994 until 2010, and finally chief correspondent in Berlin until 2013. Quentin joined Chatham House in 2014.
Chatham House ? ..... and you don't think that is biased reporting ?
Check who else is associated with that organisation !

I'm all for a co-operating Europe and if it's co-operating and the states are compatible and the people want a single cultural identity then indeed go for a more politically unified Europe and I'm sure Churchill would have felt the same (as long as it was democratically accountable of course)

The current dogs dinner the EU has manged to serve up is nothing like that and I'm sure Churchill would realise that too, although second guessing dead men is a bit of a dodgy science

Maybe I missed the end bit : IN SCOTLAND.

Ilex

It was the Brexit supporters who initially tried to use Winston Churchill as a leading light for the Brexit Campaign so as usual the dodgy science started at their door. Not to worry though, you just keep supporting the cause of all the millionaires who are going to make even more money from the Brexit and the likes of us ordinary people lose out on all the benefits we have gained over the years; this from the Economist, EH11.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver ... 3/ill-wind

And before you state it's another Blog, it was covered in many of the Daily's like the Telegraph for instance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02 ... ance-post/

Another that we who live in Cyprus benefit from is the EU Open Skies Policy, another agreement that hasn't even been thought about by the Brexit negotiators but heh!! it will only affect those who want to come to Cyprus or any other EU country on holiday or those who wish to travel to the UK to see their families. But don't worry we will still be able to make all these multi millionaires in Government like Rees-Mogg who has large dealings in China even richer; they must be laughing their heads off at us. And these are only two of the many important aspects of life that will be affected and the funny thing is that most of us, even the most rabid Brexiteers will still be living in the EU after the exit; you couldn't make it up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... access-to/

Jim

I'll try and make this as simple as I can and this doesn't require any links- confirmation comes from the eyes in your head

Britain has voted to leave the EU. That has been brought about because the UK governmnet is unable to tackle the majority of the UK population's concerns about immigration and sovereignty and it is unable to influence the EU in any meaningful way over the direction the EU is taking. For the majority of the UK's population losing those hard won national rights exceeds the frills and baubles that the EU offers.

Most of what the EU offers can be provided with a simple set of multi lateral agreements. These do not require the evolution of the EU into a supra national body. Juncker recently talked about the EU changing direction, even just reverting to a single market, although that was more a publicity stunt than a serious offer to the peoples of Europe. There are a hardcore of federalists in the EU pushing for a totally integrated Europe that the people of Europe do not want

One of the initial goals of the European project was to limit German influence and eliminate right wing extremism The Euro is seeing Germany come to economically dominate the continent and the EU migration/immigration policy is seeing the rise of the far right across Europe (even in Germany) That is of a lot more concern to me than the loss of an EHIC card

The economic policy is creating a North South divide and the migration policy is creating an East West schism.

The fact the EU has a leader like Viktor Orban and candidates like Wilders and Le Pen is concerning, but they are not the problems- they are symptoms of the problems and as long as the problems exists they won't go away and they can't be dismissed as populists any more. At some stage they will be the future of Europe if the EU does not change tack. The Brexiteers you consider to be reactionary, are pussycats compared to those three and they, like Brexit, are a symptom of the EU's failures.

The only way to reflect the democratic referendum vote is for Britain to leave- it is that simple. The new relationship will be a reflection of Britain's attitude to Europe and hopefully the EU's attitude will reflect the needs of the other people's of Europe. That is democracy in action and exactly how it should work.

Anyone who cannot accept that is no more a liberal thinking person that I can fly in the air. That is every bit as reactionary as the worst of the Brexiteers (and there are some pretty awful people amongst them too)

To dismiss the concerns of those who voted to leave and endorse an institution that is spawning extremism and poverty in Europe is just utter nonsense. Of course there will be a price for leaving the EU, there would be a price for staying, but the cost of staying in an unreformed and unheeding EU was deemed too high by the majority of the UK's population- so out it is regardless of "cost"

As for Scotland- well it has nothing to lose and everything to gain by waiting to see what deal the UK gets with the EU before it decides it's future destiny. The only person who has anything to lose by waiting is Sturgeon, because her calamitous running of Scotland and infantile antics have shown her party incapable of government, and their window of opportunity for Scottish independence is closing rapidly because of that. If you think that her behaviour is in any way designed to safeguard the future of the people of Scotland you are sadly mistaken- she is simply dragging it's reputation through the mud.

By Jove ? !!!
Ilex, you have awakened with a 'clear head', this morning.
I hope some readers will do the same !

I was listening to a group of men in a bar the other night. They were discussing their football team and arguing about the abilities of certain players.

One chap had problems getting he's point across about the poor performance of a big signing. So, he kept repeating he's point but each time he just raised he's voice a bit louder.

Just saying!

Ilex
I don’t believe anyone has stated the EU is perfect but there are many, many benefits for the ordinary people. These public concerns are mainly due to a duplicitous, deceitful and lying media owned by a few Press Barons; have you ever asked yourself, what is their agenda as none of them actually live in the UK?
Immigration as has been admitted by the Brexit camp will not change one iota and as for Sovereignty, the UK will not be any more Sovereign the day after Brexit than it is today.
The UK could not be forced into a Federal State, no more than we could be forced into a European Army or the Schengen or the Euro.

As one of the ordinary Joe Public I’ve seen my personal life and my work environment has come on leaps and bounds since we joined the EU, where there are laws that protect the individual and you don’t have to be a millionaire to have recourse to the law. We presently have access to Universities across Europe and education is available to anyone who wants it; education will once again only be for the wealthy as it always was but as one of the leading Brexiteer Tory MP’s said we can always pick vegetables’.

No; you’re not going to convince me that the UK and the ordinary people will be better off out than in.

Jim

I'm sad to see that the board seems to have regressed a few weeks, back into the constant regurgitating of scaremongering re Brexit. What I find a little disturbing is the constant slurring of the Brexit voters, and I do mean disturbing not offensive. Democracy said that one argument won and one lost, I don't think constant belittling of the choices made by remainers is appropriate. As to whether it will be justified, who knows? Nothing can be clear until the negotiations are complete, untill then all is speculation, so what's the point?

As Ilex says, there may be costs and there may be benefits. In terms of exchange rates I'm certainly one who is affected by them - whether the fluctuations can legitimately be accredited to Brexit is a whole new argument - but it's a personal price I'm prepared to pay for what I see as a more stable and less fettered country for my children and grandchildren. For me the price of remaining in the EU was way too high and had been for years.

Good post Ilex.

Me neither.

But I thought that this was a thread about the SCOTLAND REFERENDUM.

How come, everytime someone starts a thread on here, it gets twisted around to this pathetic Brexit argument?

Think you need to address that question to Jim B artlin if you check back on the posts in this thread.

Sorry for dragging the thread off Artlin but I was only responding to points raised and was not meant to be disturbing as Jacs put it.

As for Scotland I believe the Scots have every right if they believe that the English are dragging them down a road they don't wish to go down to take appropriate action; I'm certain if the English were in a similar situation we would do something similar. As we have seen from day one there is no gentlemanly conduct between the different camps.

Jim

The Scots that I have talked to since last week think that Sturgeon is dragging them down a road that they don't wish to travel, not the English.

Great post Ilex.

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Age improves with good wine

The Government has responded to the petition – “Another Scottish independence referendum should not be allowed to happen”.

Government responded:
The UK Government is clear that now is not the time for a second independence referendum.
The UK needs to work together, putting all our energies into ensuring we get the right deal for the UK and for Scotland in our negotiations with the EU.
In 2014, the Scottish people decided in a legal, fair and decisive referendum to remain a strong part of the UK. The Edinburgh Agreement of 2012 committed both the UK and Scottish Governments to respecting the outcome of the Scottish referendum. Calling for a second referendum is creating damaging uncertainty for the economy, and most people in Scotland do not want the country to be plunged into another divisive campaign. All our focus should be on our negotiations with the EU and working together to get the right deal for Scotland and the right deal for the UK. It would be unfair to the people of Scotland to ask them to make a crucial decision without knowing what our future partnership with the EU will be or what the alternative for an independent Scotland would look like.
As the Prime Minister has set out, we will strengthen the Union of the four nations that comprise our United Kingdom. We will negotiate as one United Kingdom, taking account of the specific interests of every nation and region of the UK. When it comes to the powers that we will take back from Europe, we will consult fully on which powers should reside in Westminster and which should be passed on to the Devolved Administrations.
This will be an opportunity to determine the level best placed to take decisions on these issues, ensuring power sits closer to the people of the UK than ever before. It is the expectation of the Government that the devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will see a significant increase in their decision-making power as a result of this process.

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Dave
Moira And Dave

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”