Paphos People

Sturgeon's naive hopes of being able to stay in EU when UK leaves were made very clear to her by Europe. Scotland will not be a sovereign state, simply part of the U.K., and as such cannot either join or remain in the EU.

Her sights now are on a new referendum, both in joining the EU and Scottish independence. Neither looks likely in the gateway between now and UKs leaving the EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nt-it.html

I would have said that is right, in as much as Scotland would have to achieve independence prior to applying for EU membership.

However, I am reminded that Greenland left the EU. It is not a sovereign state.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

Not my ruling Josef. But having looked at this extensively on Google I have to admit to being no wiser. My simple observations would say that Greenland was and is much more autonomous in terms of independence than Scotland is, or is even approaching. Scotland is still heavily dependent on the UK in terms of finance and revenue alone, still aeons away from total independence and with many complications such as currency and borders - two topics that Sturgeon is at lengths to either ignore or simply cast aside.

Such was her assumption, and such is her downfall. She is also dependent on the UK parliament for permission to even run a referendum, another point which she totally ignores. But her future plans, as laid out by her in detail over the weekend - defined as her either successfully claiming to be a sovereign territory, or successfully persuading the UK to grant yet another referendum - seem to have gone up in smoke.

Given her proclaimed aim to only fight another referendum when she was sure she could win, then she is not yet in that secure zone. But will that stop her? I doubt it very much.

She made a fool of herself over the weekend by proclaiming that she was sure there would be a way to extricate Scotland from the UK vote to leave. What she failed to do was speak to the EU, a point laboured and stressed by Andrew Marr in his interview with her on Sunday

The EU then made it clear, publicly, that Scotland was in no position to distance itself from the UK. UK leaves, Scotland leaves, simples.

Sod Scotland ( sorry Scotland no offence meant ) what about Wales I think we're next

You've heard about Londependence I gather?

The UK won't be the UK much longer..at this rate...

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Wales is not a sovereign nation but merely a principality that is owned by Prince Charles.

I gather London want "independence" too, so that they can still be part of the EU.

Sorry folks, none of these are going to work. They are all part of the Sovereign country - UK.
UK leaves, they all leave.

Plaid Cymru is asking for a 'new union of independent nations to safeguards Wales future after the brexit' ....

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Sorry Lynsab, smoke and mirrors! As usual.

We have just had a referendum in our street and 50.00001 percent want to join the next town cos they have got more Chinese takeaways.

Wales voted for Brexit didn't it...?

No it didn't. Most voted against it.

Don't worry CG, they're still in the UK so will be out of the EU along with the rest of us

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And the Oscar goes to........

Aaaaawwwwww no!

I'm shattered, I thought these petitions were so genuine

Allan you have so destroyed my illusions, how could you

The govt website themselves made an announcement about 77,000 fraudulent voters this morning...so they've been taken off...yet we still have 3.9 million angry people....

"Petitions committee spokesman denied any evidence of hacking, but admitted that unprecedented demands had been placed on the website over the last few days.

"The apparent leap in the number of signatures was simply the result of the published data being updated less frequently than usual," she said.

"The petitions website has not been hacked, and there has been no manipulation of data behind the scenes. Fraudulent signatures have been and will continue to be removed, to ensure the site’s integrity"

Daily Fail just missed that bit maybe?

Of course if what the DM says re the Petition is correct, then the story they ran yesterday saying 1.1 million Brexit voters now regret voting, must also be true?

In fact it seems all the Brexit papers are changing tune...http://infacts.org/brexit-press-changed ... ight-vote/

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

On News at Ten last night I saw said lady quite defiantly say that her MPs would not vote for Paper 50 (late at night, can't remember the exact term).

Honestly, what absolute utter garbage. How desperate are you Lynsab? And others like you People vote, end of. Why scrabble around looking for reasons to change it?? Particularly with such silly drivel as a petition that was started as a joke.

I'd love to know the point. There was an issue. There was a vote. One side was victorious, as is always the case with referenda. What is the problem! Get over it. Accept it and move on.

More relevant is Corbyn, the oaf that could be sitting in Downing Street in a few months. Now that's an issue to get your door down about!

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And the Oscar goes to........

Bit strong George ....getting to you all this ?

Sorry to upset you, but there's much more to come, if you think all of this is coming from myself personally you're somewhat deluded...it's a bombardment of anger such as I've never seen in my lifetime before...it was a referendum ( many countries only take the results as advisory ) not an election...Cameron says he will stand by it...yet he's going by September 2nd.....

Get used to it, of course refute it, that's your prerogative...but to dismiss one person's views when a huge swathe of the UK feels the same way is making you look desperate not me...

The petition wasn't started by me, I said clearly I didn't sign it, but to dismiss it as drivel is quite trite...

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

42000 votes from the Vatican City ( population approx. 840) ? ...... That's not 'trite' ... that's plain fraud !

But what about the other 3,958,000

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

For goodness sake, even your beloved BBC acknowledges it now...

EU referendum petition hijacked by bots

Brexit ‘2nd Referendum Petition’ A 4 Chan Prank: BBC Report It As Real

Could have been by either group, to boost the numbers or to discredit the pole, we will never know.

Jim

But what about the other 3,958,000 [/quote]
Quite a large amount found out to be from 'identical' addresses..... it's a scam !

We are welsh my husbands entire family is and they want to remain as we do in the uk

Sorry lynsab

But you cannot win them all, same as Sturgeon cannot, the Scottish people voted 20 months ago to remain in the uk and they will, they do not want out iether , they are sick to the teeth with Sturgeon and her ego.

And no matter how many numbers you throw at us for another uk referendum, the more now we will dig our heels in and say no!

Because at the end of the day

Every democratic vote was important and every democratic vote counted the same, everyone was counted individually and every vote was as important as the next, that is democracy

you remainers and your childish tantrum ways and non democracy ways are now making us all sick and tired, I have never seen so many dummies spat out of the pram, you are all a disgrace to the greatness of the U.K.

If we the leavers had lost , yes we would have been upset , especially with the release of the Superstate EU wants which are absolutely outrageous and terrifying, but we respectfully would have accepted the democratic vote for what it was

Lynsab and others just like you

The leavers won there is not going to be another referendum

Accept it and please trot on!

Migmogs you seem to know so many Scottish and Welsh people whilst you live in the EU ..I must bow to your superior knowledge...my humble apologies for suggesting that the UK is facing anything other than plain sailing...I don't think you're a disgrace at all for voting Leave. I'm not sure if 'trotting on' was meant as another insult...but I'll suck that up too...no more than I expect tbh...

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Greenland left in 1985 long before Mastricht and Lisbon Treaties changed the whole sorry mess that is the EU

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Time wounds all Heels

No hope for Sturgeon

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... ance-Spain

Didn't the Express have Boris for PM on its front page this morning...?

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Alas, (as per the thread I have just started) Boris has decided he's got too many engagements already, to have time to run for leader



It's not a case of France and Spain killing off Sturgeon's aspirations. While Scotland remains part of the UK it is not in a position to apply for membership (any more than Cornwall is).

.

I have said this in at least 3 different threads since the Brexit vote, but she still went to Brussels, and they still listened to her. Well, most of them anyway.

Brussels might Jacs but I doubt Scotland will.
Remain is one thing but independence is another.

My point was that Brussels didn't actually listen to her, rather gave her the courtesy of hearing her, but the situation is that only sovereign countries can apply to join the EU, and Scotland ain't a sovereign country. EU was never going to move on that, and she should have realised before all her talk and splutter about considering all the options. There are none!

I do believe that the Scots have more sense than Sturgeon gives them credit for. She is simply obsessed with leading an independent Scotland into the EU and it just is not going to happen.

The only option she has left is yet another referendum on Scottish Independence. And again, I feel that her judgement is seriously lacking. Firstly, Scotland has no heart for another referendum yet - a serious misjudgement by the harpy. Secondly, there has been a mega shift in the Scottish economic expectations i.e. OIL!! It's nowhere near the price it was at the last referendum, and no signs of it picking up in the near future. And exactly what other revenue does Scotland have, without the handouts from the English she despises so much??? And finally, the U.K. Parliament has far too much on its plate over the next two years to even think of throwing another Scottish referendum into the mix.

Finally, if she does manage to achieve a majority vote in a referendum,should it ever be granted by the UK parliament, just what is she going to do about currency and border controls, both of which she has to put in place? Both of which she dodges in questions and discussions.

Two steps too far for the Scottish people methinks.

Sturgeon needs to know her country a damn sight better than she does now, and maybe stop listening to that old reactionary Salmond. His view of Scotland is way, way out of date and an insult to the Scottish people. Take note Sturgeon.

George, I can't help but think your argument is rather short on facts. Let me help by offering you the following.

The economy of Scotland is the 43rd largest in the world with a GDP of $233.332 billion per annum. As of 2016, Scotland is the second-largest economy in the United Kingdom, and the twelfth-largest economy in the EU. Since the UK joined the EU, Scotland has gained closer ties to other EU economies, reducing its economic dependence on the UK. In addition, membership of the EU has drawn an influx of foreign investors attracted by Scotland's access to the single European market and being a member of the Union.

The Scottish economy produces, for example, textiles, whisky, shortbread, jet engines, buses, computer software, ships, avionics, and microelectronics. It's service sector includes banking, insurance, investment management and other related financial services. In common with most other advanced industrialised economies, Scotland has seen a decline in the importance of both manufacturing industries and primary-based extractive industries. This has, however, been combined with a rise in the service sector of the economy, which has seen significant rates of growth over the past decade and is now the largest sector in Scotland.

Just facts.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

George: The first poll after the EU referendum shows 53% for independence 47% against. I realise polls are not definitive but this is a major change and gives the lie that Scots are happy with the status quo.

But that's with no canvassing Zorba. Throw that into the mix, along with all the 'undeciders' and it will no doubt be a wholly different story. Sturgeon knows she needs 60% + before she dare think about calling a referendum, hence her dissentience to push this at the moment. She wants someone else to make the decision for her. Sadly she doesn't comprehend that UK leaders - UK LEADERS, not Scotland, have more urgent matters to deal with.

JK I accept your comments, but 43rd in the world doesn't really hack it in the EU. All the other facts you comment on are I'm sure valid, quite how valid in £sd is another matter, but you also need to set against them the huge input of funds from the UK which will cease on its exit from the UK. That will leave a huge black hole. Scotland is currently managing, I reiterate, managing, with this input. Add to that the massive problems - and costs - of setting up its own currency, and borders, and its validity begins to look less rosy.

"........membership of the EU has drawn an influx of foreign investors attracted by Scotland's access to the single European market and being a member of the Union."

But it won't have access to the single European Market when Article 50 is enacted!! And if there is a successful referendum, it won't be a member of the Union either! This is Sturgeons problem and, currently, there us absolutely no way round it. She wants to have her cake and eat it and neither UK nor EU is playing ball.

Just one option to consider - Scotland currently has a no cost university education system. Just how long can they continue that with no funds from UK.com?

Sturgeon is a lawyer, not an accountant or an economist, and it shows in her posturing and the mistakes and incorrect assumptions she has made already in approaching the EU. The future of Scotland will be interesting, as will its actuarial competence.

Denmark, with roughly the same population as Scotland and with is own stability problems, is 13th.

That's a lot of catching up

Exactly George, that's with no canvassing. I would expect the independence vote to go higher when canvassing starts. Look what it achieved in the last referendum rising by about 15% points.

And errmmmm, that's why they lost the last vote??

Voting increases on both sides Zorba! The current results are in Scotland alone, no input from UK.com. As there would be in a referendum, massively!!

But the yes vote increased by a bigger amount than the no vote and in another referendum would appear to be starting from a higher base

Straws at clutching Zorba!

no funds from UK.com?

Even with low oil prices the UK.com would be in a poor state if it lost the oil in Scottish waters.

Well it all depends, as always, on how you calculate the figures. If we were to say that 90% of North Sea oil belongs to Scotland, which I suspect is pretty reasonable, then the figures indicate Scotland provides 9.4% of total UK revenues and gets 9.2% of UK public spending in return. Hardly a black hole.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

JK, I've no idea if your figures are right or wrong, and I'd be amazed if 90% of oil belonged to Scotland! but I'd be very surprised if, based on all the info flying around at the last referendum, including Faslane, Scotland was in a position to support itself. Even without the costs of currencies and borders.

And I do remember an awful lot of businesses and commuters then, on and around the perceived border, wholly dependent on free access both north and south, who were incredibly concerned for their livelihoods, and who would be voting again against Scottish independence. Which, at the end of the day is the only tool in Sturgeons box right now.

https://fullfact.org/scotland/tax-and-s ... -scotland/

You have to remember that, if Scotland leaves, it will have to take its share of the UK national debt with it...

Good point CG!

Before the Scottish referendum the Treasury stated that there was no legal requirement for Scotland to take on any of the debt.

I do believe they have their own debt.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 21381.html