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 Post subject: Solar PV net metering
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:38 pm 
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Been reading up on solar power and would welcome recommendations . Does it really repay within 4 years?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Each case is different, you must calculate your aspects by yoursel.
My view - it doesn't feasible while I am pay roughly €400 per year.
Lets count:
- panels and invertor €3800-5300
- a request for the install €295 (should be returned €200)
- €168 yearly payment for (access to grids? )
- max energy to accept/deduct is 5000kWh per year, above that or your accumulated load it will be your free contribution
- you must have 20 sq m roof space to install 12 panels size of 1.65m x 1m or three 3x2m

E.g. my ROI is from 12 to 20 years.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:09 pm 
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I have spoken with an electronics engineer , he also says no ..

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:55 pm 
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You see Neil, that's what I like about you...succinct....


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:21 am 
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We have just received our first electricity bill using net metering and we made a saving of €160 - So far so good.

We think we will get our money back in 5 years - and do our little bit to help save the planet :banana

Doc


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:33 am 
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Doc, could you please give us more info to understand your case? I mean same points what I wrote above.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:53 am 
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Our installation cost €5,000 with an extra €298 which we had to pay to the electricity board.
Our thoughts are that €5298 invested at the local bank at 2% is earning me €105.96 less 30% defence levy. Total return of €74.17 (€12.35 every 2 months). Our first 2 months bill saved us over €160 – not a bad return!
I was not aware of the energy cap – all of the contracts we signed with the Electricity board were in Greek – Really my fault for not translating these documents – the contact is 14 A4 pages long. Who would have guessed that the Cypriots weren’t completely honest with me!!! All that said, if I do produce 5,000 KWH (produced 1614 KWH from March) at an average cost of .23 cents (2014) would produce a saving of €1150 less connection fees, which Sergio says are €168.
I have spoken to people who are going for the installation, as they are more interested in the amount of units produced, so their property has less impact on the environment – and feel that over a longer period will win – Produce more energy than the kit took to make, and recoup their original investment.

Doc.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:04 am 
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It would be interesting to make yearly count next year; that would include sun radiation conditions during all seasons, the fees and will reveal the cap and your factual debit-credit amounts...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Our electricity bills used to average about €200 each, i.e. €1,200 pa approx. We also have a built in gas fire and gas underfloor central heating.

Now we're on net metering, our electricity bills are less than €30 each (most of that is the producer's charge) and we also use less gas during the colder months. So, a saving on electricity and a saving on gas.

We consider it well worth the outlay - after all, as Doctor Keo says, money in the bank earns precious little interest of which the Cyprus govt takes its cut in defence tax.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:51 pm 
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To add to what PW says, we keep an excel file of usage and generation since September 2013 when we had it fitted.

We now use as much AC as we like and have halved our winter gas (Polemi) by using surplus electricity.

People talk a lot of rubbish about net metering, especially if they have not got it (Neil's electronics buddy for example.)

Look at my excel file - those are the facts. :grin:

A minus indicates a unit of electricity we had to pay for - there were none all, the net figures in the last column show electricity in credit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:15 pm 
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Sergio wrote:
Each case is different, you must calculate your aspects by yoursel.
My view - it doesn't feasible while I am pay roughly €400 per year.
Lets count:
- panels and invertor €3800-5300
- a request for the install €295 (should be returned €200)
- €168 yearly payment for (access to grids? )
- max energy to accept/deduct is 5000kWh per year, above that or your accumulated load it will be your free contribution


Sergio I don't know where you get this stuff - it is bits taken from the "grid ties" plan and the micro solar park plan.
Net metering facts:
About €250 to get EAC to install the meter (that was 2013)
€5000 to €6000 to buy & install on panels on roof (or ground level) & inverter.
EAC monthly costs inc meter rental/RES charges only €14,42 a month.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:36 pm 
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I got the numbes from an office some company in Pano Paphos (if you try to stirring a pot).

Not sure why you avoid to discuss the cap of 5000 kWh per year though? As to your numbers they are not contradict with my post.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:41 pm 
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Polemi Dave makes a good point. Presumably any "usage" calculations you come up with will fail to take into account the extra liberty you now enjoy with Aircon etc., so its not really an apples for apples comparison?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:50 pm 
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Sergio wrote:
I got the numbes from an office some company in Pano Paphos (if you try to stirring a pot).

Not sure why you avoid to discuss the cap of 5000 kWh per year though? As to your numbers they are not contradict with my post.


Not stirring a pot, giving out correct information, not hear say (from a man in an office somewhere) but my experience and my receipts.
as to 5000KWH per year, its just irrelevant, as 3KW net metering could not possibly generate that much and householders would never need that generation anyway. I am happy to discuss with you why a household might need 5000KWH, just so you don't think I am avoiding the point. :sunny

Pete G
The Excel file does show the aircon usage but I don't think it shows the usage that goes directly into the house, like right now when we have the aircon on. I believe in that situation the house demand is satisfied before uploading to the grid. I say believe, because I have not been able to prove that categorically with the EAC dual tariff meter I have.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:16 pm 
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Oh boy! "Hearsay"... no need to bring down your opponent to pretend to be right

Well, I will post one more time and only for you who are overloaded with too much scepticism to others...

I did stop at an office of official company what specialized in solar panels installing. I did spend my time as a customer to get as much details and numbers as I could.
I did wrote every bit of info down and did share it with TS (or OP).
[I don't get it: why need to be so dismissive for that? Or you are the-mister-always-rigth? ]

Now back to facts.
Generated energy transferring to city grid, not directly to a house..."blending" with current distribution, so it's simple to metering - one old style meter for what you're taking and other one what energy coming out of the invertor connected to solar panels.
If prev poster got 1300+ kWh for three months, then his contribution will exceed the cap at end of his year of using the equipment .
The point is if some household will use the cap amount of energy to receive full reimbursement for the generated energy?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Sergio
I just can't understand what you are talking about.
It is impossible to generate 5000KWH per year from a 3KW net metering account.

We were one of the very first households in Cyprus to install net metering, I have kept a record of readings and bills which I have posted.

I hope my records helps anyone who is considering installing net metering. I have shown my installation to 5 or 6 other families in Paphos, most if not all went on to install net metering themselves. Anyone who seriously wants to see a system in operation email me at my work [email protected] and I will arrange it. I also have a stand alone PV pool pump /panels since 2011 which might be of interest to someone wanting to see how these stand up over time.

So I am off to turn on the free air conditioning and I am not going waste my time arguing about what a man in a pub might have said. :sunny


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:15 pm 
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Polemi Dave wrote:
Sergio
I just can't understand what you are talking about.
It is impossible to generate 5000KWH per year from a 3KW net metering account.

We were one of the very first households in Cyprus to install net metering, I have kept a record of readings and bills which I have post...
talking to deaf ears? "man in a pub" ? Why you're twisting words here? Read again where my info came from.

As to the cap. So far you didn't post your bills, nor any real info about how much energy your setup did generate for one full year or during your whole history. You could add cells to your spreadsheet what will calculate sums of used and generated "units" eg perhaps kwh to show year balance. But I'm doubt in such complicated outcome seen wrong dates in last column. Too much negligence to trust it.
So, while waiting the your data, I will try to help you understand the big number, five thousand kwh: lets assume we do get 300 sunny days per year on Cyprus and average ten hours per day when the Sun hit the solar panels of output three kw total;
I will counting by third grade math for you: 10*3*300=9000 kwh; adding some uncertain conditions by decreasing output to 80%, will get more then 7000 kwh.
Do you comprehend the simple math now?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:38 am 
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Sergio
There is a typo on the date second line down should read 26/06/14 not 15.
You cannot calculate PV generation with simple mathematics - it is far too complicated.
My figures confirm that 4464 units were uploaded into the grid from April 14 to April 15
This does not include any electricity used before it went through the EAC meter. So technically it is just possible to produce 5000KWH but not to upload that to the grid under normal circumstances.

I don't think you are interested in PV net metering. However just in case I misjudge you here is one of many sites that will calculate it all for you. http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php

Net metering is a limited scheme as they will licence only so many, I do think some other family might appreciate it more than you - so why trouble yourself.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:49 pm 
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Thanks for the link, using it I got little more then five thousand kwh per year. When I finally will get the solar panels, I will measure precisely and will post here.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:06 am 
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Many thanks for the informative replies and several pm's. Providing that I can house all the panels required on that part of my roof facing south, then I think that I will proceed. It seems to be a no brainer leaving money sitting in the bank earning diddly squat in interest , when I could be getting around 1200 euros of electricity p.a. for a 5k-6k euro investment. Happy days.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:10 am 
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Well done Stormy - this is the best investment you can make these days. It is close to a 20% pa return on your investment, and more because you will use more AC and electric heating, than you normally would. Take a drive from Kellepia to Polemi and you will see on the right hand side as you enter the village a Cypriot family has used a novel way of increasing their roof space to accommodate the panels. :crylaughin .

Not been mentioned here before but I believe the requirement to have an MEU3a permanent residency certificate has been lifted. EAC still require you to be living here most of the year and have a building permit and all the owners permissions. Difficult for those waiting for deeds and long term renters.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:42 am 
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All now installed and working , just the online bit to sort out for monitoring. I am a bit confused about the smart meter and would appreciate , from those that have , on how to understand the constantly changing display. Many thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:27 pm 
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Hi Stormy
If your meter is the same as ours (Landis GYR+) and meters do vary depending on EAC, then the reading is as follows

1 - Electric brought into the house in the normal way
1R Electricity generated on phase 1-usually nothing, so that reading does not change, after the test figure of 10~ 20.
2 Electricity used on the return phase (same as 1R,) nothing after the test reading of 10 ~ 20.
2R - This is your generated electricity fed back into the grid.
So it is only 1 and 2R you need to worry about.
1 in and 2R out.
Your inverter probably has a daily and total KWh hours reading as well. This can be useful in calculating just how much electricity you used that never went through the meter.

Now the internet monitoring. You need to be easily and permanently able to link the inverter and your router by cat 5 cable. Honestly I can't see the point. I prefer to take my own readings and put them on an excel file. Thus I know just how much electric I need to use by 24 April (May for same Eac customers) so I don't give EAC too much free stuff. Only 16 units this year returned to EAC free. :sunny

A final bit of advice wash your panels, with soap if needed, regularly - makes a big difference.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:15 am 
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Thanks Dave, all makes sense now. Savings ( export to grid) beginning to add up despite a/c use . One happy bunny. :celebrate

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:30 am 
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How much power does a panel produce/ its rated power, house opposite us has 23 panels, driving around I am seeing more and more panels, often 10, 20, 30 panels, some in fields some covering the roof almost completely. not sure the "3kw " is being adhered to.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:11 am 
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The 3kw limit is for the net metering system that feeds any surplus back into the grid, usually 12 panels required. There are solar parks selling energy to EAC , also systems that charge up batteries for home use. Plus you can have solar pumps for swimming pools.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:04 am 
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Mouse wrote:
How much power does a panel produce/ its rated power, house opposite us has 23 panels, driving around I am seeing more and more panels, often 10, 20, 30 panels, some in fields some covering the roof almost completely. not sure the "3kw " is being adhered to.


Mouse - quite a complicated subject, but here goes.
PV electric is generally divided into 5 types
1. Commercial where house or land owners are paid by EAC for the electric produced. These can be as small as 5KW or several hundred KW and more. The sites as known as "solar parks"
2. Stand alone systems where buildings have no EAC supply and charge batteries.
3. PV DC current applications like water pumps and swimming pools.
4. Grid ties - the house uses PV electricity by preference and draws extra from the grid when required
5. Net metering.
Net metering is a two way flow of electricity, generally up to 3KW nominal upload, although in some circumstances EAC have allowed 6KW. Panels can be any number adding up the 3KW - normally this is 12 x 250W panels. ( a 250W panel means that in absolutely ideal conditions, the maximum it will produce is 250W DC. Like your car may be able to reach a speed of 140 kmh - it rarely does.)

If your interest is for home use then 3KW net metering will produce about 4500 units (kwh) every year.
Your location must be as near due south as possible with no sunlight obstruction from 9am to 5pm. Even the shadow thrown by electricity cables will drastically reduce the output. (you do see some panels on turntables for pitch and degree. This is too expensive and difficult for household use.)

While we cannot know what your neighbours have in terms of panel size (eg 150W x 20 = 3kw) or indeed what scheme they are on. If a householder is exceeding the number of panels this is not a big problem for EAC as they cap net metering credits at 5000KWH a year. Anything over produced or not used is lost to the net metering householder in May of every year.

Hope this helps. :morning


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Thank you dave for explaining it clearly. I am interested in Green power. Our property is 26 years old and am concerned about inviting elec company in to inspect our wiring, whilst it is in good condition and safe it obviously does not conform to the latest wiring revision.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:41 pm 
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Update on our recently installed PV system. Just received electricity bill for past 2 months usage and pleased with the result. Given the number of cloudy/rainy days my solar panels covered 75% of electricity needs. Well pleased.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Stormy, that must have pleased you because whilst you had to invest money you elec bill is only 25% of what it would have been , a good result.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:42 pm 
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Just curious, Stormy, how long you expect for ROI of the install ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:06 am 
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Sergio wrote:
Just curious, Stormy, how long you expect for ROI of the install ?

I need to wait a year before I can accurately predict how long it will take to recover my investment, many factors to take into consideration including the price of electricity which of course fluctuates with the price of oil etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:12 am 
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I'm personally, counting before spend money.
If we will base on that number above , so PV will generate 4500-5000 KWh per year; I think you have AiK bills for a few years and could get your average load per year.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:07 pm 
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Since the panels were switched on ( last week of August 2015) they have generated 1700kw. Not sure if that is good or bad, will need to wait for a full year to assess.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:13 pm 
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stormy wrote:
Since the panels were switched on ( last week of August 2015) they have generated 1700kw. Not sure if that is good or bad, will need to wait for a full year to assess.

Seems to me you'll get the 4500+ KWh before last week of Aug 2016.


Last edited by Sergio on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:51 pm 
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stormy, you're got a follower ... :cheers
Could we exchange some data, perhaps it would be interesting for other people who do concern about saving on electricity ?

Here is my snapshot of a power produced by one of my panel and whole set during last day/week. Do you have access to your data online like my ?

I'm concerning about less output then I expected - by design, the set must generate 3 KW power, but as you see, it's maxeing at 2 KW and generating ~ 16 KWh per day. Practically, the energy generating between 9am and 5pm this week. And it's best time of an year for max output. All other season I'll get less energy because of shorter day, low angle illumination, clouds, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:15 pm 
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For Sergio:
I went into this whole topic of PV panels to generate electricity and came to the conclusion
they were just too expensive to buy and install and maintain to be viable.
From what you say the kit you were sold was a rip off.
If I was you I would ask the supplier to come and dismantle it all and give me my money back.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:31 pm 
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Sergio, I understood that the best solar PV is produced on bright but cold days - for some reason the heat diminishes the amount of PV produced.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:14 pm 
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My supplier informed me that Spring would produce optimum benefit from the panels. Once the daytime temperature soars above 25c then the panels are less effective. Currently get 18kw per day, haven't paid anything to EAC for electricity this year and currently using aircon all night and part day. One happy bunny. Well worth every cent .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:06 pm 
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stormy wrote:
My supplier informed me that Spring would produce optimum benefit from the panels. Once the daytime temperature soars above 25c then the panels are less effective. Currently get 18kw per day, haven't paid anything to EAC for electricity this year and currently using aircon all night and part day. One happy bunny. Well worth every cent .


What you say is right, but clearly you bought a more viable system.
Sergio's system, with a nominal 3 KVA output, he tells us never produces more than 2 KVA.
Which is why I think he should ask for his money back - then he could maybe buy another system from your supplier!
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:37 pm 
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PW in Polemi wrote:
Sergio, I understood that the best solar PV is produced on bright but cold days - for some reason the heat diminishes the amount of PV produced.

That's right, but the thermal coefficient is just -0.43% per degree from optimal +25C; measured temperature is around +45C; so we got -8.6% declination of produced power by PV panels. It's far from my max, we need to bring into the discussion not meaningless arguments like in a post above, but facts based on measured parameters.
Adding to that - major factor would be an irradiance. My setup is optimal for my property: tilt 17 degree, orientation of 6 panesl is 105 and 285 degree for other six. Plus morning shadow from short wall and tall tree nearby.
Here is a map (south direction is up, middle line is a ridge on a roof, so panels installed on two slopes).
Numbers on each panel are current energy produced by each panel.

What I got last three days [per day]: 16.5; 16.5; 17.1 KWh.

stormy, could you share your setup physical parameters ? (tilt, orientation, etc)
Do you have online access such my install allowing ?


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Last edited by Sergio on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:57 pm 
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Here is a graph of produced energy by each panel during a day [yesterday]; if stormy could post same type of graph we could do real compare...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:02 pm 
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stormy wrote:
My supplier informed me that Spring would produce optimum benefit from the panels. Once the daytime temperature soars above 25c then the panels are less effective. Currently get 18kw per day, haven't paid anything to EAC for electricity this year and currently using aircon all night and part day. One happy bunny. Well worth every cent .

I would think you have 12 PV panels, if so average energy per one panel would be 1.5 KWh.
My 11 panels making 17 KWh, eg 1.545 KWh; this is an answer to "crying wolf" :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:56 am 
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I have 11 panels and a chimney stack that causes shadows on some panels at sometime throughout the day. I was made aware that I would not achieve optimum performance before I signed any contract . I am more than happy with what I have and am on course for achieving 5000kw in the first year.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:17 am 
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Polemi Dave wrote:
Sergio
I just can't understand what you are talking about.
It is impossible to generate 5000KWH per year from a 3KW net metering account.

We were one of the very first households in Cyprus to install net metering, I have kept a record of readings and bills which I have posted.

I hope my records helps anyone who is considering installing net metering. I have shown my installation to 5 or 6 other families in Paphos, most if not all went on to install net metering themselves. Anyone who seriously wants to see a system in operation email me at my work [email protected] and I will arrange it. I also have a stand alone PV pool pump /panels since 2011 which might be of interest to someone wanting to see how these stand up over time.

So I am off to turn on the free air conditioning and I am not going waste my time arguing about what a man in a pub might have said. :sunny


Someone must eat the crow now ! :lol:

stormy wrote:
I have 11 panels and a chimney stack that causes shadows on some panels at sometime throughout the day. I was made aware that I would not achieve optimum performance before I signed any contract . I am more than happy with what I have and am on course for achieving 5000kw in the first year.



Duh ! :doh


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:20 am 
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stormy wrote:
I have 11 panels and a chimney stack that causes shadows on some panels at sometime throughout the day. I was made aware that I would not achieve optimum performance before I signed any contract . I am more than happy with what I have and am on course for achieving 5000kw in the first year.

Seems to me (after asking a couple times) you got no access to online monitoring ...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:23 am 
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stormy wrote:
I have 11 panels and a chimney stack that causes shadows on some panels at sometime throughout the day. I was made aware that I would not achieve optimum performance before I signed any contract . I am more than happy with what I have and am on course for achieving 5000kw in the first year.


Sounds almost too good to be true. What size are the panels (approx.) and what did they cost?
Thanks,
Geoff.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:47 am 
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The PV panels standardized (at least what I gather from a few companies in Paphos): 1.65x1m, they have little bit variation in output power: 250-260 W.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:11 am 
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We had a 5Kw system installed about four weeks ago, we are still waiting for AEC to come and inspect and approve the installation.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:08 pm 
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Jim B wrote:
We had a 5Kw system installed about four weeks ago, we are still waiting for AEC to come and inspect and approve the installation.

Jim

Hi Jim,
When we had our 3kw system installed last year it did take 3-4 weeks for EAC to come round and check the installation and give the final approval to switch it on. It took 4 EAC staff to understand the system, fortunately my installer was on hand to guide them through it. I take it that you have visited EAC and signed their contact ( 14 pages in Greek !).

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