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 Post subject: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:53 pm 
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whilst watching a police programme on tv the other night, there were so many people that had gone on the run after being put on bail.

i think it would be a good idea to "tag" anybody on bail, that way the authorities would no there every move.
it might be at high cost to the tax payer, but surely in the long run, it would be more economical.

whats your views?

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:58 pm 
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Electronic tagging doesn't always work either, they can cut them off!

Curfews are also a nightmare as the onus is then back on the police to have to go and check them every day, something which is not always possible if it is busy.

I have been frustrated many a time by people getting bail that are clearly either going to re-offend or not turn up at the appointed time.

I'm not sure how much of this is to do with the prisons being full and/or their Human Rights.

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:37 pm 
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i blame a lot of this on the parents, both my parents were never in any trouble, they had 3 children, who've never been in trouble, in my immediate family there's about 20 of us and we've never been in trouble,

but when you see these tv programmes, it seems that the parents of young children, dont seem to give a toss

bring back hanging.

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:54 pm 
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what about an explosive inplant ... If they leave the house, there head blows up :smilielol :smilielol
I might watch to much TV .. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:36 pm 
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This is quite a complex subject and there are no right or wrong answers. First, you have to remember that EVERYONE has a right to bail when brought before the courts, and it is for the prosecution to show good reason why that right should be denied.

In certain cases the granting of bail is unlikely e.g. murder/rape etc. but not unheard of...........bail is also unlikely where the likely sentence will be custodial and there is a guilty plea............but again, it is not automatic because of that right to bail............you can thank those wonderful people in Parliament for setting the criteria and for determining what can or can't be done in the name of justice.

Then there is also the background of the person charged with an offence to consider..........if they have a clean sheet then the presumtion is more in their favour of granting bail than not...............do they have work ?(real work, not transitory stuff), do they have family ties in the area? do they have community ties? have they turned up for hearings previously? (if not the first hearing)? likely disposition of the case?..................and the list goes on..............of course you can impose conditions till the cows come home (except the presumtion is that if you need to impose an extensive set of conditions, is a remand in custody more appropriate?)....................but the problem then is one of policing them. Of course, if any of the conditions do get broken it is a lot easier to revoke bail and remand in custody, provided it can be proved the conditions have been broken!!

On top of all that, you then get the Court of Appeal making statements to the lower courts about resisting remands in custody because of high prison populations, and Parliament as well getting in on the act telling the courts what to do......................all this from a party who got into power saying "Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime" (or some other inane drivel along the same lines)

All-in-all, those idiots in power need to spend some time in a court to see just how they have tied the hands of those sitting in judgement, and to pull their heads out of their *rses and taste the coffee!!

Sorry to go off on one, but its one of the reasons why I left the UK :tickedoff

chris

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:38 pm 
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"This is quite a complex subject............................."
Yes Judge, it appears that way!

Must say, in a professional capacity I've also come across my fair share of those sitting in judgement who would have done the tax payer a better service if they'd removed their heads from certain orifices and tasted the coffee on occasions. I remember the start of a court session being delayed because the Chair of the magistrates was late - washing her hair!

Tagging? Nice little earner for the company supplying and maintaining them but, as has already been said, the offenders cut them off when it suits them to go AWOL.

I don't have any answers - if I had I'd be high up on that list of wealthiest people. As it is I get paid peanuts, attempt to stop youngsters in the community reoffending, and love my job to bits! Must go - heading off to work. . . . :greetings

Louise

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:22 pm 
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what happens if a habitual thief who keeps breaking into cars, ect. jumps bail, the cops arrest him/her, takes them back to court, and low & behold, there bailed again.

what happend to the 3 strikes & your out?

bring in tougher sentances, if your caught with a knife on you, automatic 5 years, and so on

it's about time the courts started working 24/7 instead of starting @ 10am lunch from 12.30 to 2,00 & finishing @ 4.00pm

a 4 1/2 day, what a great life.

in one way i feel sorry for the police, they catch the criminals but the courts dont do their job

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:46 am 
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arsenal wrote:
what happens if a habitual thief who keeps breaking into cars, ect. jumps bail, the cops arrest him/her, takes them back to court, and low & behold, there bailed again.

what happend to the 3 strikes & your out?

bring in tougher sentances, if your caught with a knife on you, automatic 5 years, and so on

it's about time the courts started working 24/7 instead of starting @ 10am lunch from 12.30 to 2,00 & finishing @ 4.00pm

a 4 1/2 day, what a great life.

in one way i feel sorry for the police, they catch the criminals but the courts dont do their job


I hope the courts don't start earlier.May day in reception starts at 07am and i finish at 10pm.It is a long day :shock: Tagging don't work as they often burgal locally.

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:18 am 
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Louise - I cannot comment on a magistrate being late because she was washing her hair................I do wonder where that information came from? i.e. was it announced in court that that was the reason? or was it some comment bandied about by the people in court? I do know that in our court we started at 10am no matter what, and we were instructed to end no later than 1pm, and re-commence at 2pm with no set finish time but recommended to be 5pm. This was to enable the court clerks (Legal Advisors) to have a lunch break so as to comply with their contracts of employment.

All very well saying to have courts start earlier and finish later, but you need to remember that Magistrates are unpaid, so unless you abolish the courts you won't actually save any taxpayer a penny..............and the reasons for starting at 10am was amongst others, to allow prison vans to get to the destination court in time - believe it or not the prisons routinely refused to produce prisoners at court by a set time unless they had sufficient time to get there allowing for the prison routine not being compromised e.g. unlocking the prisoners in the morning, slopping out and having breakfast etc....... You also need to remember that Magistrates are supposed to come from all walks of life, so if you had courts starting at say 8am, you would more or less exclude the possibility of getting mothers with school age children........and also people with businesses to run who might need to go into the office first thing, and people who might be employed doing a few hours before going to court.


As for 3 strikes and you are out, that does not have any standing in the UK - it is an American priciple and not enacted in the UK..............and probably never will because it would result in an even higher prison population!!

Tougher sentences.....................no problem there.................just ask Parliament to make those sentences available because unless its on the statute books you can't impose them!!

As for the habitual criminal who breaks bail (as per Arsenals comment) - by breaking bail conditions they have foregone their right to bail and would be remanded-in-custody as a matter of course - do you have any specifics on this one?

For every observation about the court system I can offer I do not doubt others can offer up something to contradict what is said - I do know one thing, and that is unless you were in court and heard all aspects of each and every case, you could hear distortions and mistruths outside from the press and media and others till you could easily believe something entirely different to what actually occurred.

|Chris

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:52 am 
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Very interesting post Chris.
Thankfully never been inside a court but it is interesting to know how the legal system works.

Jan :)

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:29 pm 
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Judge wrote:
Louise - I cannot comment on a magistrate being late because she was washing her hair................I do wonder where that information came from? i.e. was it announced in court that that was the reason? or was it some comment bandied about by the people in court? I do know that in our court we started at 10am no matter what, and we were instructed to end no later than 1pm, and re-commence at 2pm with no set finish time but recommended to be 5pm. This was to enable the court clerks (Legal Advisors) to have a lunch break so as to comply with their contracts of employment.

All very well saying to have courts start earlier and finish later, but you need to remember that Magistrates are unpaid, so unless you abolish the courts you won't actually save any taxpayer a penny..............and the reasons for starting at 10am was amongst others, to allow prison vans to get to the destination court in time - believe it or not the prisons routinely refused to produce prisoners at court by a set time unless they had sufficient time to get there allowing for the prison routine not being compromised e.g. unlocking the prisoners in the morning, slopping out and having breakfast etc....... You also need to remember that Magistrates are supposed to come from all walks of life, so if you had courts starting at say 8am, you would more or less exclude the possibility of getting mothers with school age children........and also people with businesses to run who might need to go into the office first thing, and people who might be employed doing a few hours before going to court.


As for 3 strikes and you are out, that does not have any standing in the UK - it is an American priciple and not enacted in the UK..............and probably never will because it would result in an even higher prison population!!

Tougher sentences.....................no problem there.................just ask Parliament to make those sentences available because unless its on the statute books you can't impose them!!

As for the habitual criminal who breaks bail (as per Arsenals comment) - by breaking bail conditions they have foregone their right to bail and would be remanded-in-custody as a matter of course - do you have any specifics on this one?

For every observation about the court system I can offer I do not doubt others can offer up something to contradict what is said - I do know one thing, and that is unless you were in court and heard all aspects of each and every case, you could hear distortions and mistruths outside from the press and media and others till you could easily believe something entirely different to what actually occurred.

|Chris


It works same in prison we are entitled to break in morning as per our length of time and this would hold up courts.We could start earlier but then you need more staff.We are under staffed as it is.I thought slopping out ended years ago when prisons were upgraded with in cell power and toilets.

Prisoners are unlocked or courts at 7am in morning and as you can see they will have been up 3 hours before even walked into court.We are also seeing themcome back at 9pm at night and even later.Crown Court trials even worse especialy if out each day they get ratty.

Decency o know has to be taken into account and that is why it is impossible to get prisoners to court befoer 10am also logistically impossible unless we up 24'000 officers to about 36'000 as you need to staff houseblocks and reception.

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:28 pm 
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Not been to Lewes then? modernised it ain't!! :shock:

chris

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:33 pm 
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Chris,
When did you retire ?
I thought the 3 strikes was alive and kicking in Crown Courts.
Gary

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:56 pm 
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Judge wrote:
Not been to Lewes then? modernised it ain't!! :shock:

chris


But it has in cell electric and toilets ..sloping ended years ago when decency came in.Also do know lewis also 3 strikes and you are out is in that is why there are ISSP sentences now.Just under different name.

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:55 pm 
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I "retired" in 2005 when I resigned from the "Bench" just prior to moving here - I do remain in contact with a number of good friends from the Bench, in particular one who has a home out here over the eastern end of the island and I am able to keep up-to-date with all developments with her as we always get together when she and her family come over and we have a good old natter.

Readers may find the following of interest http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk ... 0Final.pdf


http://www.oup.com/uk/orc/bin/978019921 ... entencing/

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_ ... elines.cfm

Despite intensive enquiries I am unable to ascertain any concept of enacted law relating to a "3 strikes and you are out" in the UK - a green paper was published in February but it relates solely to illegal internet downloads in the UK - if anyone can point me at the specific enacted legislation that brings this concept onto the statute books for any and all crimes in the UK I will acknowledge it with an apology.

...............as for Lewes, its a "*hit-hole" and no amount of "updating" is going to change that................but for heavens sake, I was only referring to slopping out as one of the activities that is a pre-cursor to getting prisoners out of the prison and on the road to court - do we want to get hung up on something that may or may not still happen somewhere...possibly? Point is you don't have prisoners ready to leave prison until the necessary early morning activities have been completed......good enough?

chris

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:43 pm 
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Chris

I am not getting hung up but slopping out refers to when all prison is unlocked not the courts.Activities do not start untill 0815 at which time all courts on vans have left.I am only clarifying a point as it misinterprets that activities have begun when not.

I have access to green papers and governors but will not post here and sure those in rank and file can access also.It may look like i am trying to upset you but i am not.Just stating facts about conditions in prisons.

Sorry if you took offence.

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:27 am 
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No problem at all Frank, and no offence taken - situation clarified :celeb2

chris

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 Post subject: Re: on bail
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:41 am 
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Cheers Chris

What a strange world we have to work in and hope you are enjoying your retirment 8)

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